I sort of agree with you in a way. One of the issues that I have is how prolific some poets are (often posting one or more pieces per day) but how often there are very basic errors (even spelling mistakes) in their work.

I know some will say it is stream of consciousness stuff but that is no excuse for shoddy work.

I do wonder how much time poets do spend editing, proofing, honing their work.

Perhaps for mediocrity read lazy, sloppy etc

I'd be interested to know your definition of mediocre

I was asking for your definition - dictionaries are notoriously unreliable

I read you poem jewels - which I assume is on this subject - and I'm not sure I agree that poems do pass and die unnoticed as you imply - yes it is nice to get feedback but just because a poem doesn't attract comment doesn't mean it has not been read and appreciated

and equally I don't see that the subject is taboo or likely to upset apple carts - if you have an opinion on a piece I don't see why you feel inhibited in expressing it

I see so having accused others of being mediocre - it's time to ignore that insult and move onto a general discussion - yes good one

I'd suggest that everyone who submits work to WOL is guilty, or at least capable of mediocrity. Some of my pieces are better/worse than others and I'm sometimes tempted to delete the worst examples. But we're not machines and, if something strikes the reader as mediocre then, as the adage almost says, read something else instead.

I'm often struck by just how generous and indulgent some of the feedback is on WOL, but in a way I'm glad it is; I've been writing 30 years and I think I've attained a certain proficiency; if I'd been told just how shit I was when I began, I might not have continued, and continued to improve.

If I'm completely honest I don't see that much poetry, here or anywhere, that appeals to me, or displays signs of craft and effort. However, part of what I like about WOL is its democratic nature - good, bad or indifferent, everyone's welcome.

Call me wishy-washy, or reluctant to offend, but one person's mediocrity is another's genius. I don't really believe this though, but who am I to criticise?

COLIN,
I think the best one about how we all feel about our own mediocrity, is Ken Eaton Dykes comment on the `àppropriation` blog:

` wish someone would find my stuff worthwhile stealing`

Always remember that mediocrity is in the halfway stage towards excellence.

For goodness sake, folks, our stuff is up here! in public! almost published (free)..what more could we ask for?

If you`re worried about mediocrity, read some of the competition - winning stuff...the field - quality-wise - has never been freer.

Comments should be about the poem, not just about our feelings, polite, and aimed at helping each other.

"Why do you want to narrow the discussion down to this single point? The accusation of mediocrity was levelled at myself as much as to anyone else and no-one in particular. I think that much I have made clear. "

well you haven't or I wouldn't have continued to ask to make yourself clear

I'd suggest watching summoned by bells by sir john betjamin - it's on utube - and is a masterclass in both the art of writing poetry - and in writing poetry that connects with people

oh and not confuse praise - which is the poison of poets - or lack of with mediocrity - they are entirely different creatures

I'd also recommend looking at the work of ch sisson - his essays as much as his poems

As with all discussions, I suppose, a resolution will probably not be found. I think this one has become a little muddy, and 'mediocrity', 'praise' and 'personal opinion' risk being bound up together.

Jeremy, I could watch masterclasses all day long and still not become a better poet, unless I was prepared to put the effort in, and accept frank and constructive criticism, which, I fear is lacking on this site, largely because as a forum, its contributors are far keener to encourage and support one another (one and other?), than they are to offer serious critiques. This may be no bad thing though; encouragement is vital.

Harry, you'll need to strengthen your assertion that 'mediocrity is in the halfway stage towards excellence.' I don't agree at all. You go on to say that 'If you`re worried about mediocrity, read some of the competition - winning stuff...the field - quality-wise - has never been freer.' On this basis, mediocrity seems to have become an absolute state, an end point, and one that garners endless and seemingly unearned awards.

One last point; Jeremy, you say that '...praise... is the poison of poets'. I'd say rather that too much praise, or praise without a countervailing criticism can indeed be a danger. But can you honestly say that you're not chuffed when someone praises your work? If so, I fear I'm a weaker vessel - I like to kid myself that I don't give a fuck what anyone thinks of my poems; that's an enormous lie. I relish praise, but I'm not dumb enough to confuse it with a mythical objective truth.

Keep on keeping on as The Redskins once sung; practice makes perfect sense. For some, mediocrity may prove to be like puberty, a phase. For others it may be a pinnacle - but who's to say?

I aspire to mediocrity.

"I could watch masterclasses all day long and still not become a better poet,"

yes that's true and as you state one does need to put in the effort - but my reference to betjamin is that he points in the poem that he did put in the effort - but perhaps more importantly outside of the poem but in the film he says that one should appeal to the commonalities of experience - and often - what is in terms of this discussion deemed mediocre is not mediocre per se - but it is simply failing to connect with that commonality - or has taken a form that does not convey that commonality - whether by structure or language

"But can you honestly say that you're not chuffed when someone praises your work?"

yes I am chuffed - I don't deny it - and am often cut to the quick by criticism - hence the term poison - used in the narcotic sense - one should not allow either praise or criticism to unduly influence what it is you write or the style in which you write - or indeed anything else - one should always have a voice in the back of your head reminding you that you are mortal - particularly in triumph - just as one should have a voice reminding you that you are not mediocre - just not connecting with the divinity within you that expresses yourself in greatness - allowing of course the years of practice that has refined your taste and skill

and I'll admit travis I am very grateful for the feedback you have given - it has been been most useful - and I perhaps should have reciprocated - as I find your work very well crafted and worthy of great merit

but I ask you - as a serious minded poet - how many times have you picked up and dropped the muse? I'll wager there has been years when you haven't written a word - and times when you have thought everything you have ever written was mediocre - and then when you go back to it you find that actually some it was rather good - but a great deal of it was cringeworthy and juvenile - and simply just trying to be a poem - instead of expressing something within that you want to say - and perhaps did not have the courage to say it - or the language to express it - or worried that it was too old fashioned - or whatever

my point is - I'm not going to condemn in others - something it has taken me thirty years or more of scribbling to understand within myself - because frankly without those thirty years of trying - with the accompanying fear of success - I would not come to this place of understanding of what is process and what is product - and the strange way in which the two interact

"I'm struggling to understand what point you are actually trying to make."

I'm saying you should come out from behind your camera - stop being so defensive - and stop trying to be clever - and instead of wasting time being defensive and attempting to be clever - use that anger and disappointment that drives both impulses to write something truly worthwhile

oh and let's not kid ourselves that by using terms like 'apple carts' and 'taboos' that somehow you are not talking about other people - since there is nothing taboo or upsetting of apple carts - killed sacred cows etc - about self criticism

and if this is a general discussion I find it odd that you ignore the constructive advice I offered - in order to nail yourself to the cross of victimhood - particularly when you are the one calling for plain speaking and constructive criticism

Jeremy, I agree with you, and Betjeman, about seeking to present the ''commonalities of experience'' - that's essentially why I bother to write at all, and why so much of what passes for quality poetry angers me - because it seems to revel in its exclusivity and unknowably personal frame of reference. Still, it's only words on a page, and in the scheme of things, not vitally important.

I'm happy to say there hasn't been one year in the past thirty when I haven't written anything; that said, I have written, and thrown away, a great deal of crap along the way. I must say though that there are days when I think my poems are worthless and indulgent - but other days when I'm enormously grateful for the fact that I've been writing for a long time - I like the idea of having a 'thing', an anchor, if you will.

Can you elaborate on this phrase which appears in your thread ''...with the accompanying fear of success'' It intrigues me.

This discussion thread began by trying to describe mediocrity and the value of honest, hopefully constructive feedback.

As is often the case (if any of the protagonists care to wade through some of the back numbers) the discussion degenerates into a tit-for-tat game of tennis between two contributors with differing views, sometimes seeming a little aggressive too.

Whether a poem is quality or crap, gladly is in the eye of the beholder, like beauty, we all have a different view.

Personally, I do not know any poets who have bashed out a collection in a fortnight's work and sent it for publication.

Like some poets on here, I'd like to have a book published one day but there are some stark realities that I and a lot of other aspiring poets need to be aware of.

Firstly unless you enter and win an important poetry competition (whence your other work may well then be scrutinized) you (and I) will have almost no chance of getting a poetry book deal.

Another way is to self-publish which can be done as cheaply as £600 or more professionally for about £3k.
It will then be up to you to market and sell the damn thing in whichever sphere you choose.

In both of these examples the work in those books will need to be unpublished before (including on a site like WOL) so anyone thinking of doing so will not be listing stuff on here.

Self publishing cuts out all the quality control for a mediocre book of poems.

Whether the feedback on WOL is honest, critical, constructive or just plain blowing smoke up your mate's arse, one thing is for sure.

Most of us are gutted if no-one comments, even if it is to say a piece of work is rubbish (which doesn't happen often).

Sadly some of the members use WOL for an agony aunt (no bad thing if someone wants to be one) or as a cathartic recovery form personal trauma in their life.

All are welcome on WOL. Just be glad that someone is reading your stuff. It may well be mediocre to some, gold dust to others. So bloody what!

The moment you send a poem baby into the big wide world of the Internet, you've got to let it stand on its own merits or otherwise.

So come on chaps, less of the bickering and use your obvious talents to write more stuff.

Do the bloody work as someone once told me!

"In both of these examples the work in those books will need to be unpublished before (including on a site like WOL) so anyone thinking of doing so will not be listing stuff on here."

yes this is one of the more curious aspects of the poetry trade - no doubt for reasons of copyright - for how does one know if one likes a poet without first reading their work - and how does one know if one likes their work without reading it

an example I would give is francis harvey - whose books are practically impossible to find in book shops - and the library doesn't stock him - and whose work I happened upon on in an RTE podcast - and subsequently by finding poems here and there on the internet

I suppose it is a hang over from the fallacy that 'home recording is killing the music industry'

Mediocrity is in the eye of the beholder. I personally thing Betjemen one of the most mediocre poets of the twentieth century, right next door to those upholders of the great British tradition of dull but worthy as Kipling, Larkin, Housman and the rest. Culminating in such duds as Motion, Duffy and Armitage. They wouldn't come alive if you put 10,000 volts through them.

The degeneration of this discussion is unbelievable. And it was/is an excellent topic for the exchange of considered ideas. Whenever a participant or two become mired in personal issues, treat the exchange like a religious 'debate' -ie. hopeless to continue and guaranteed to be hurtful. So - stop.

Now that we have got rid of the `M` word perhaps we can get some good out of this.

The whole point about the site is that our poems (of whatever quality) are voluntarily put up for perusal and comment.

Friendly comments should be about the poetic words on the page so that us other readers can see that it is not just back scratching but genuine appreciation.

This will help not only the poet, but also the rest of us.

I stress again ( however politely, considerately, and fellow-sufferingly) the actual words of the actual poem on the actual blog. That way we all benefit.