Can one of the admins with the relevant privileges please remove all of the moralising about whether Write Club is a totalitarian state that denies every poet's civil and human rights to this thread please?

First of all, I apologise for Sylvia - she was wrong; I see that now. I'd also like to say that she was never intended as a means to making people look stupid - and for the record, nobody did (reading the poem back, Steve's analysis of it actually does work -serendipitous, given that the poem was intended to read purely as pretentious rubbish - and Malcolm figured out straight away that it was a con) .

Next, I'd like to address the idea of whether write club is supporting poets - absolutely! It supports them in two ways:
1) it provides a forum for poets to find out what who really thinks what about one of their poems, and 2) Poets who have read the rules and decided not to post to Write Club can post on the blogs, be told that everything they write is fantastic and then read Write Club, see someone else getting a more mixed reaction and feel superior because everyone likes their poems whereas not everybody is so keen on the protagonist of WC thread.

Does one have to be a great poet who is confident of ones abilities in order to open oneself up to criticism on WC? No, two reasons: 1) I used to play Bridge at a very posh club where everyone was very competitive - if I came out mid-table, I was happy, if I came bottom I was happy - many of the people who attended would go quietly and politely mental with repressed rage at their partner whenever they made game and hadn't bid to it. Poetry is a hobby to most of us and - sure, do your best - but wherever your best efforts are - mid table or in a league of their own - chill out, and just enjoy taking part. 2) WC works both ways: Reading the thread, you formulate an opinion about the quality/qualities of the poem... but you also formulate an opinion about analytical skills of the reviewers too. If you can see their logic and that their review makes sense, it's all to the good - something to work on. If you can't see those things from them then why care what their opinion is - they're not your target audience.

Lastly, Write Club will probably move to the forthcoming monthly ezine, and the rules will be clearly posted there and people will be encouraged to read them before posting - any posting to WC will be taken as a sign that the poster is happy to be critiqued under that format. Nobody will be forced at gun point to post to Write Club. Anyone posting there at the moment, please comment honestly on my poem, which is the current topic or say "We've finished commenting on this one - can someone please post a better one for us to comment on?" then one of you post the next one up there and we'll all comment honestly on that one too.

I said "lastly", but of course that was a ruse. Lastly, I won't be at Wigan tonight because I've just had a phone call whilst writing this to tell me that I'm on babysitting duty tonight. So, have a good night everyone, and see you soon.

Please don't apologise. Not all ideas are going to work as we hope. I would hate to think that other ideas might not be tried because one doesn't quite come off. Most of the things I come up with fail. Here's to the success of Write Club.

I will accept your view about Steven's analysis, it slipped through my colander.

Hi there!
I am considering entering one of my poems into the write club. I feel as if I need open and honests critiques if I am to improve as a poet and as a person even. I am a member of a writers group and it can be difficult thing when you know all the people as friends to give an honest critique as you feel you might hurt people's feelings but without a challenge how are you going to grow as a poet or a person!

Everyone here knows i'm not familiar with most of the technical terms associated with poetry writing.
Neither am i brave enough for the the kind of critique which suggests i shouldn't be writing anything at all, let alone poetry.
However i do think there are enough others on this site who are braver than i. So of course it is a brilliant idea to form and shape write club into a worthwhile place for constructive critique.
If i may be so bold as to make a suggestion though, i would recommend that the entries state whether the poem posted is meant for page or performance or even both, because from what i've read in many comments, it does make a difference to the critique.
I'll certainly enjoy reading the poetry as well as the critique because it might help me to improve my own too.
Who knows? One day i might even be brave enough to post one. Pity i can't do it anonymously, or i would do it right now.

Good luck with this DG and anyone else involved with it.
It's a great idea and like you said, it is up to the individual whether they choose to post a poem or not.

thanks all, for the next couple of days we are discussing Darren Thomas's poem on write club, which you can find here:
http://www.writeoutloud.net/public/newsgroupview.php?NewsThreadsID=728&NewsGroupsID=28
- I'm giving it an extra couple of days because a lot of people who would join in as reviewers won't be logged on at the weekend. After that, Daniel, we'd be delighted to have a go at analysing your poem.

Can you post it up there on Tuesday evening, if it is looking like the discussions of Darren's poem have reached a conclusion?

When WC goes into the forthcoming Write Out Loud ezine as a feature we will try and get three or four poems up there for discussion at the same time, because the ezine features will go out monthly.

Is there a queue to post to Write Club?
Cx

There appears to be - bit difficult to regulate that in these forums because of the way they are laid out.

However, this feature will, as I have said be moving to the ezine when the ezine is ready, and I will probably need three or four poems that can be left up there for a full month and reviewed over that period before the next issue of the zine kicks in.

I suggest the following:
A) if you have an urgent need for your poem to be reviewed on Write Club (you need a first in your poetry module and it's about to be marked next week but your current cannon only merits a high II(1), for instance), then you post it to the current WC thread providing your predecessor's poem has had a review period that you deem to be decent.

B) if you are able to wait, but would like your poem to be studied and poured over for a full month, send it to dermot@writeoutloud.net with the subject line "Write Club Sub.: [Title of Poem].

Okay DG. I've revised my answer on WC. Will that suffice?

Getting there.

Right, I think we appear to have come to the end of that critique, so Daniel - can you post your poem to Write Club please?

I really thought I wouldn’t care
And I don’t. I swear.
This Write Club writing,
This Old Testament smiting
Of a few cobbled words
Read but not heard
In their intended voice.
I had a choice,
I know. But I thought
I wouldn’t have sought
Validation,
Admiration.
And I don’t.
Nearly.
I don’t.
Really.

This poem below is not a true reflection of how I feel about Write Club. It is a (slightly sarcastic) response to people asking me to write with a little more emotional input. I may have gone a bit overboard on this one but the poetic voice is fictional. I imagined I was more hurt by the criticism than I was and riffed on it. Interesting exercise. I really don't write like that normally but the style contains seeds I may use in future work.

It looks as though there may be only two critics of 'Only Child' in Write Club so I will take it to be closed and suggest that another person makes a posting. For me it has been a very worthwhile exercise. It is very good to have thoughtful feedback on a piece of work. As DG has said before, it is usually only the famous who get their work dissected in detail.

As a prolific writer of doggerel I am happy to be tottering on the cliff above the pit of my own creation or even of falling into those receptive rhymes or rollicking rhythms. Listening to the comments of Siren and DG (and thank you for devoting the time to do so) I have made some revisions. I don't know yet whether these benefit the poem or not. I continually revise so some of the original may creep back in. Who knows, but I do really appreciate the critique. Thanks.

Only Child

I was an only child, one of five.

The ghost of a brother,
dead before I was born,
followed me out with my mates.
My mother's voice rang in my head.
“Don't climb trees now! Remember George.”
Impossible for me to forget
what couldn't be remembered.
Just an only child, one of five.

A sister in her teens when I was born
is briefly a sort of mother,
then disappears to the Air Force,
from which she returns a stranger.
To an only child, one of five.

Another sister is a child parent
living a couple of miles away.
Hers was a place to go
away from my old mum.
Her only child. One of five.

My brother has left
his privileged school and gone.
The scholarship for a poor kid over,
and desperate to be away from
the father he couldn't live with.
Just an only child. One of five.

I am an only child. One of five.

I second that - could do with a new poem to get our teeth into. The best ones to post are the ones that you loved the idea of when you were writing them but you weren't so keen on the resulting poem and didn't know why. We will answer that question for you.

Anyone wanting to post but not wanting to be identified, post it to me dermot@writeoutloud.net and I can put it on there under my own name (that way nobody will hold back from slagging it!), or I can put it onto the version of Write Club that will be going out in the forthcoming monthly ezine under the name of anonymous, if you prefer.

I wouldn't mind sticking another one in the firing line but I don't know the protocol on double-posting. We don't want this to look like some old boy's club.

Come on, people! Get something up there so we can rip it to shreds...er...I mean, consider its relative merits...

You can post another one if you like - I will do some advertising on Duotropes for more subs when the time comes.

"2) Poets who have read the rules and decided not to post to Write Club can post on the blogs, be told that everything they write is fantastic and then read Write Club, see someone else getting a more mixed reaction and feel superior because everyone likes their poems whereas not everybody is so keen on the protagonist of WC thread."

Hell of an assumption to make, Dermot. Yeah, there's a lot of positive feedback on poets work on this site (not a bad thing), but I'd hardly call it a popularity contest or love-in. I make a point of giving constructive criticism when I think it's necessary directly to the poet (I'm not the only one, I'm sure), and each time the poet has fed back appreciatively. I don't think anyone has ever edited or deleted a comment I've made about their work (at least not on this site).

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that, in my opinion, WC runs the risk of turning this site into a kind of multi-tiered elitist monstrosity. "Serious" poets have their work scrutinised (possibly over-scrutinised) at WC, and those looking for a pat on the back and a "well done" just post in their profiles and blogs. Seems more than a little contemptuous to me. I mean - the title and whole purpose of THIS thread definitely suggests that.

I've been following WC's progress since it began and held off commenting because I was hopeful it wouldn't go that way. Unfortunately, it has.

Happy to discuss.

Hi Steve, how the hell are you? Nice to see your voice on these boards again (if you know what I mean).

I can understand how DG's rather aggressive defence/promotion of Write Club might get people's backs up and no doubt he will respond in person, but in the meantime, I will.

You may have noticed, as I have, that the range of submissions to the Write Club bear-baiting contest has already been fairly wide. This isn't an area just for one type of poet. There is also the consideration (which is so easily forgotten when one's poem is being deconstructed) that these are just opinions. I think I can honestly say that having had my own work torn apart (the infamous 'kestrel' poem) I feel the better for it in retrospect. I may not change the poem, but I have certainly thought about doing so.
Encouraging emerging poets is a fantastic thing, and poetry is such a personal art form that, when people's work is criticised, they tend to take it personally. No-one is forced to go on Write Club, but if people want independent criticism then that is the place for it. The flip side of encouragement (and you know that I encourage students with my poetry night) is, unfortunately, pandering. If the world of poetry that new poets move in is self-congratulatory they do not progress. Why should they? Everyone is telling them that they are wonderful anyway!
I take your point that the blogs are not just an opportunity for incestuous backslapping but the way they are set up does encourage people to be gentle. In fact, I think WOL advised me to be gentle in my comments on others when I put my blog on recently. This is all fine but I think WC gives a chance to those who wish to go a step further. There is very little discussion of poetics on this site, considering it is a site dedicated to poetry. If the only feedback people ever receive is 'I really liked that image' or 'Couldn't you find a different rhyme for X' then nobody is really going anywhere.
The best criticism I ever received was when I was on the editorial board of a magazine and the eight editors had to go over each other's submissions without the submitter responding. It was excrutiating, hurtful, heart-rending.....and it did me the world of good. I heard things about my work which nobody else would ever tell me. And I took some of it on board and became a better poet.
As for elitism I'm all for it. Some people are really good at things, and some aren't, and there's a whole bunch of us in between. Personally, I'd like to step up to the next level and if you want to call that level an elite....well....so be it. Let me put it this way....I think Gerry Potter is one of the best poets of the time, and to suggest that we are all on some kind of level playing field is an insult to his genius.

Anyway, hope that wasn't too much of a rant. And I hope this hasn't dissuaded you from coming to Inn Verse on Thursday. We hold an entirely gentler type of evening at the Sally.....

I can't be doing with this non-inclusive attitude, whereby there's an elite clique of supportive and complementary poets who think that is the only way of running a comment posting forum is their way, and who try to shut down anyone who tries to run anything different.

I'm a live and let live kind of guy, as you know Steve, and I think your type of poetry posting forum and mine can live peacefully side by side as two different avenues of support for those who choose them, neither one detracting from the other, and I wish yours well. So, why were you hoping that mine would die a death? After all, it's not like I'm going to attack you with a baseball bat and force you to post to WC - or even to read it. I think the great thing about the inclusivity of write out loud is that people who want to post to their blogs and people who want honest and no holds barred critique can all get along together.

As Siren says, it was always a feature of WC that the readers are asked not to take the reviewers' words for it uncritically and to make their own judgements about the reviewers' opinions and understanding of the poems and poetry in general equally as much as they examine the poems.

When this feature goes into the ezine, the rules will be right there at the top of the page, and all the stuff about not needing to feel be a fantastic poet to post there and in fact that you will get more out of the WC experience if you are open minded and happy just taking part in poetry regardless of where you feel your abilities are in the grand scheme of things.

As to flirting dangerously with becoming an elitist thing, I think most people see write club for what it is: an opportunity to have your poems considered much more carefully and every nuance examined much more thoroughly than you would get just about anywhere else that I know.

I am probably an arrogant bastard, but I do not claim any particular knowledge and I am not part of any elite. DG, Siren and me have been the main contributors of critique and it must be immediately obvious that we have widely divergent views. That is good. What I think it should say to potential contributors is that your view is as valid as anybody else's and if you submit your poetry you will get a chance to see what others genuinely think about it. You don't have to agree with their opinion or take any notice of their suggestions.

I love poetry, but it is pretty obvious that in the enormous mass of poetry produced any thoughtful reader is likely to have critical views of most of what they read or hear. It must be a good thing to have a place where it is expected that those views are expressed.

Get in there and join the debate rather than telling it to shut up.

Hear, hear! Or whatever it is they say in those gentlemen's club with the red leather highback armchairs and the single malts brought by obsequious flunkies.....

Let us not be disingenuous. To say that we like something is to say that we dislike something else. To recognise quality implies that we recognise its opposite. But we are individuals. Poetry will live without us. And every single contributor to this site has something unique to say.

You're not coming in my club.

To quote Groucho Marx, 'I would never belong to any club that would have me as a member.'

We might be short of flunkies, but I think Bella might perform better at interview than you.

No doubt

DG - I don't want WC to die any sort of death! Far from it. If anything, I'm probably being over-cautious about the direction WC COULD go in. Not to be on a downer, but one of the low points writing-wise for me last year was whenever I would mention WOL to anyone they would say something like "That Rhyme thread", tut and shake their heads. It scared people away - certainly from this site. Yeah, the thread was very entertaining (the vitriol between Malpoet and Waling alone made it worth the entrance fee), but its effect was unforgivable. I'd hate to see WC have the same impact.

Having taken time out to re-read the entire WC thread, I will say that you appear to be policing (ugh - for want of a better word) the thread well, DG. I'm hopeful that it won't turn into a slagging each other off forum. And yeah, I intend to post a poem to WC. Right after this post as a matter of fact.

Incidentally, the first paragraph of your response to my post made me laugh out loud. I'd suggest a career in politics, but well, it's beneath you, isn't it?

Siren - Gerry Potter is not a genius. If there is such a thing as 'genius' - which I dispute, then it's hard work done so thoroughly as to make it look effortless. Gerry works very hard. I say that as a man who loves him more than any man who could love an ex-gingham diva has any sort of right to.

And what's more - I'll buy you a pint if you read that kestrel poem, unchanged, at Inn Verse on Thursday. I'll buy you a pint and sing your praises until Doomsday if you dedicate it to Dermot.

Malpoet - I fully intend to join the debate. On a re-read of the thread it's actually proving to be rather civilised.

Incidentally, I was at Poets & Mash at Matt & Phreds last night. Steve Waling was there. He sends hugs*.

(*he doesn't).

I am civilised to the extent that a tom cat is civilised when he comes in and takes your food hand out ( before visiting six of your neighbours and doing the same), but then he spends the whole night rutting and chewing ears off anyone he chooses to challenge or who he believes might be challenging him.

I am the first to try to provide an environment for poets to place or perform their work in which they will not be told that they are not a poet or that their work is rubbish etc. I think that WoL does that in many ways online and in its events.

If we want to give people an opportunity to go beyond uncritical acceptance of their efforts, to have their work challenged and dissected to help them understand how their poetry is seen and understood by others we need fora such as WC to do it. Nobody can be in any doubt that it is not compulsory to submit your work to the possibly harsh light of WC. It is also likely that some will not submit their work to WC, but will read it and consider what has been said about the poems of others then re-examine their own work.

I really do not accept that any poetry can be over examined. If it is a worthwhile piece of work it is worth putting time and effort into considering its merits or weaknesses. I write plenty of stuff which is superficial and trivial. That would not merit deep analysis. If I want to be daft, that is what I am going to do, why not, but it is probably not a good idea to ask people to critically analyse those things which you have not created with serious intent.

If people are really put off by a thread containing some sharply opposing views which are put vigorously, or if they are frightened away by the existence of sharp critical analysis in an area reserved for that purpose, they are probably not very interested in using the site anyway.

We need to encourage newcomers and the tentative, but if you want something stronger, that should be catered for as well.

I will continue with my ear chewing. You are welcome to have a snap at my lobes.

Steve - I meant genius in the eighteenth century sense rather than the modern Einstein/Mozart/de Burgh sense. ie. creative ability and high level of achievement. I am fully aware of the fallacy of the 'born' genius. While it is clear that some people have particular innate aptitudes for certain things, it is also clear that these abilities are only realised and enhanced through hard work and environmental variables.
There was a recent study at a music school where they tried to find examples of these 'child prodigies' everyone assumes are out there. They couldn't find any. The pupils who excelled in their particular fields happened to be the same students who practised the most. Huge amount of work + some talent = success. This is why WC is important. It will enable those who wish to exceed by giving their work a certain amount of qualitative contextualisation. Of course, it is still possible that all of the criticisms could be plain wrong and therefore useless, as they were in the case of my kestrel poem....

Malpoet - I have decided that you can become a member of my club, as long as you don't pee on, or scratch, the furniture.

Flash bugger. I'm not joining a club with furniture.

Hi all
Been readings the rollercoaster of a thread known as write club. On the whole think its a good thing and is still settling into a format.

I have been struggling to improve a poem of mine lately. Didn't want much rhyming in it but wasn't sure where to go with it. I remembered a a message on here about using a regular pattern of sylables to create a flow. Well applied that theory and made some changes. not there with it yet but it IS bettter.

Can't remember who said that but it does show that all the analysis on here is seeping down to people who read but don't post on the thread

Thanks

Winston

SIREN:


Huge amount of work + some talent = success


Never a truer statement.

Magic rarely happens unless you make it, so Magic is true when its rare, interesting what you said about the musicians, how they practised and achieved the results. The world will most likely never change in terms of you get what you work for, and you can be almost anything you wish if you have determination, passion, clarity and hard graft. 90% of the struggle is without glamour, its not rock n roll, there are explosions or fireworks, its often just a plane boring wall of shite to climb, the view is great though.

I respect any grafter.
Luck is just a temporary convenience

Siren

No need to defend myself. Not only are your comments well founded as they always are, I agree with a lot of them.

Obviously I would differ on some points, but I think it is a too important part of WC that critics get a free run for us to carry on a side discussion. After all I would like to see more critics coming in and giving us the benefit of their opinion.

Come on critics get in and give 'Winter' a good going over. Get your own back on me and banish the cold outside. Make it a case of the biter bit.

I just thought a big free-for-all punch-up might be fun. Maybe I'm missing the rhyme thread.

Yes quiet isn't it. Get Steven to say something! Haha.