Hi there.
Are there any North West Mens writing groups ?

Cant see any.

Just wondered if there are , whats the difference between that and a womans writing group?

I mean whats the point of any of it?

Crurious

This is an interesting question Peter.

I know of no such group, but then a famous sailor once said "I see no ships".

There are of course plenty of women's groups and groups for gay and lesbian writers (Commonword in Manchester have both). If you look further afield there are some for men only but they seem to be for gay men only.

The most interesting part of your question comes right at the end where you ask what such groups are all about.

Well to me the writing groups are usually about sharing in one way or another and it always bothers me when a group is set up for such sharing that only certain groups or parts of society are invited. But then when I think about it I'm not sure that I would want to be involved in such an exclusive group.

I think exclusive groups are exactly that even though the people who set them up may genuinely feel that they are offering something to a group they feel are excluded elsewhere. But you really can't tackle exclusion by creating yet more exclusion.

Or am I missing the point?

I'd be interested to hear a defence of such exclusive groups. You never know, if someone makes a really good argument, they might sway my opinion.

Hi there!
How are you! Seamus


Yes there are woman's only groups
black groups
gay groups
gay black
gay woman etc

which is all GREAT but................

is there not any for men?


I don't understand why they have these exclusive groups/
could someone offer an opinion on this.
i'm easily confused by political correctness

I keep seeing these groups all the time and keep waiting for the straight men group but it never arrives

or even a bi group will do
heck

o r heck who cares! its sill having these groups.
im pretty annoyed actually.

an interesting question would be the reaction towards a mens only group.

Sometimes it seems that part of society is due a rough time as perhaps we had our own voice too long. Maybe thats what its all about.

I dont know

I mean what on earth is the point of exclusive groups? I really cant see it.

is it me or?

I do see a potential value in redressing the imbalances of the excesses of feminism (not feminism per se; its excesses) by giving opportunities for groups of men to discuss issues of men's place in the world, our relationships with our parents - particularly their dads - with women, children, and ourselves, etc. I believe that such discussions might be easier in male-only groups, to avoid the distraction of having to defend or explain our situations vis-á-vis women.
Any views?

Hi Peter & Julian

I agree that there is some temptation in the idea of redressing excesses of feminist (and other ...ist) positive discrimination.

But then I stop and think for a moment - damn! if only I could find a way not to do that! So after I thought again I realised that discrimination, whether called positive or not, is still divisive and that seems to be a bad thing.

Oh bugger! Now I've had to go and think again .....

Surely having a group for poets, or artists, or writers, or stamp collectors could also be seen as divisive.

But such groups are often, and always in the best examples, open to anyone who wants to be involved, just like write out loud which must rank as a particularly inclusive group.

So I think I have an answer .....

Yes I think a men only writing group would be fine,

Excellent even,

Just as long as

Women could attend as well!


All that thinking is a bit too much at times, maybe I should go and have a sleep or watch TV to give my brain a proper rest - then that's another story. I think there is probably a poem in there, or at least the makings of a rant. It will probably emerge one day at WOL, but that process can be somewhat unpredictable and unreliable - but at least it is inclusive.

Don't think too hard!

Seamus

Men Only Groups

Men only groups
Damned to a sexist era
‘Bi-gone age’, women rage
Kill the dinosaur institutions
Groups of men muttering
Masonic words a stuttering
Men only groups
Old workingmen’s clubs
Piss up in glorified pubs
Slagging off their women
Sad gits ogling at women’s outfits
Institutions from out of the arc
Trying to cop off in the park
Men only groups
Even the church isn’t left in the lurch
Caught out in some old vestry
Now there’s a line for controversy
All these institutions all noble and tall
Male bastions guarded like the Berlin wall
Men only groups no more
Hang on for that ‘one moment in time’
Who the hell was elected to tear them apart?
What’s with all these deals?
Let’s get onto ‘Sheila’s Wheels’
For some ‘bonza’ new deal for society
Men only groups no more
Can’t have ‘men only’ insurance
For ‘bootiful’ car insurance deals
Best get onto ‘Bruce’s Wheels’
Well,’ tie me Kangaroo down sport’
You can’t have that, its sexist
Men only groups no more
Women only groups there aren’t many lads
Did a Google search! Only 19 million hits
That doesn’t half get on my my nerves
Guys are you going to join the Women’s Institute?
So lads lets tear down these sexist monoliths
Monoliths that bar men from joining
No! So bring on those men only groups
Gay men’s groups, Single Dad’s Groups
Men’s writing groups, Disabled Men’s Groups
Have a ‘Free-mason’ with every copy of the Daily Mail
Fight back for our rights, this imbalance to redress
Burn your pants boys rid society of this sexist mess

© William Laurence
Aka Phil Golding 0508

Lot of blokes posting in this thread, isn't there?

Pete said -
"Sometimes it seems that part of society is due a rough time as perhaps we had our own voice too long. Maybe thats what its all about.

I dont know

I mean what on earth is the point of exclusive groups? I really cant see it."

Simply put - Society discriminates. The dominant norms, values and ideologies in society tend to be dictated by heterosexual white males. Sad state of affairs, but that seems to be the case.

How many things do we take for granted as 'that's the way things are'? Think about it. If you had to face widespread discrimination everyday as part of the cultural norm, you'd look for people of a like mind too.

I think, to some extent, exclusive groups act partially as a support network. It's a brave writer who airs personal issues/grievances in a public forum - especially in poetic form. No-one wants to think of themselves acting in a discriminatory manner - intentional or unintentional. The trick, I think, is to get away from the mind-set of blame and accept personal responsibility.

Unfortunately, people are resistant to even the best kind of social change. Which is why we have despicable media constructed concepts such as 'Political Correctness'. There's no such thing as PC. It's a phrase that trivialises the very real needs of people.

Until there's equality one MUST celebrate diversity. Which is why separate groups are necessary. Don't get me wrong - no-one is utterly exempt from discrimination, and most grievances have a right to be aired. Society however, provides more opportunity for the opinion of the heterosexual white male to be heard - in my opinion. Look at who runs the media. Look at government.

I'm amazed no-one's mentioned social class. Can of worms for another time, perhaps?

Sorry about the rant. Sometimes it feels like I'm slowly digesting a dictionary.

Preserve us from 'equality'. What the hell does that mean anyway? I don't want equality of mind with Gordon Brown or David Cameron. In fact I don't want equality of anything with anybody.

Diversity is not just about race, gender, sexuality, age, wealth and so on. It is about our very identity. The fact that I am different from everybody else in the world is something that I celebrate and treasure. Anybody who wants to equalise me with anybody else can get lost.

If anyone wants to join with others on the basis that they have something in common, that is absolutely fine. It doesn't matter whether the reason they are getting together is because they are poets, or because they are men, or because they are male poets, or any other reason. Let them get on with it. Join if you want to and don't if you don't. If you are a woman who hates poetry they are of no interest to you are they? The same applies in all other directions.

If you feel threatened or upset by exclusive groups you are displaying an inadequacy of your own rather than any shortcoming of theirs.

Malcolm - Good point. What is 'equality'? Seems a bit easy, blase and inappropriate, doesn't it?

After all, if it is just solely about fair treatment and a fair opportunity to be heard then surely we'd have had it for ages by now? Aren't we that civilised?

Also - and further to your point - 'equal' on whose terms?

Again, I think it's a point of personal responsibility. Consider how one contributes toward a culture that discriminates and then decide what you're going to do about it.

I think it'd be great to live in a society where when a person proclaims "I'm ___ " it wouldn't be so much of an issue and the response would be "Yeah, that's great. What about you the person?"

Hasn't happened anywhere yet though, has it?

My poem aimed to be sarcastic against a society thats gone pc mad, at a society that segrigates rather than unifies enabling all.

If it has caused offence I apologise


For MY actual views read on

Raise the Barrier

We have to surmount many barriers with each new day we face
Trying to get past or over them; sometimes forced to re-trace
Everyone is trying to get by in what’s called ‘Societies Norm’
Looking for a sign or signal to help us along and conform

We all need markers to act as a series of signposts and guidelines
Humans need there a framework and rules to minimise confines
Barriers get put down to keep our own paths true, not to get lost Problems arise when we’re all doing this and often lines get crossed

Life becomes like the bowl of soup a ‘sticky mess of confusion’
With flailing arms we battle on and end up getting a contusion
So, why do we at all societies levels regularly reinvent the wheel
Why not join our ‘life’s train’ share our tracks, to me that’s real

Being labelled, ignored or stereotyped are barriers that derail
Not knowing where to go for correct advice can make points fail
Being looked upon as a problem is the problem, remove that barrier
Let us join our trains once in a while to become life haulage carrier

What’s your disability, ethnicity, sexual orientation, gender, or creed?
Doesn’t matter, lets join our knowledge together and plant a seed
Help remove that barrier of ignorance that bars us from sharing
Open up your world to other groups to value, not start comparing

Lack of detail breeds assumption and ignorance. How to breach?
We all have the tools at each and every level to reach out to teach
Working hand in hand with all this, is a skill that has to glisten
Become the pupil, try and put yourself in their shoes, now listen

Equality, Diversity, Minority, Majority .... it's all about one thing really. Like minded people getting together to discuss issues that effect them all, in an environment where they can pat each other on the back and say "There, there... we'll be alright!"

Men have every right to get together and spout about the things that are important to them as much as any other group. I have a sneeking suspicion it might have something to do with psychology..... in general.... very in general ... men couldn't be bothered. They get enough of a battering from all the other groups wanting to have their say on social conditions without adding to the raised voices.

Where you do find mens groups, I think, is in sport or obssesion (is there a difference?) not generally something that tugs at the emotions.... A men only branch of Greenpeace, or Save the Children... I don't think so. Women, I believe, feel they have the monopoly on emotion and injustice and so let any men that feel it as well tag along. Certainly not allow them to have their own exclusive male only group.

So back on topic ... "a mens writing group" it could work, I suppose, but I'm a man, and if sexuality has anything to do with it, heterosexual (no idea what the correct PC term is these days), and I like to interaction of women when reading and writing. Their view is errrmm.... weird ... compared to my own logic and I like that.

A men only writing group? ... Not for me thanks. I don't need a pat on the back and being told it'll be alright. I'm very secure in who and what I am. I don't give a stuff what anyone else does as long as I can do my thing in peace. I certainly don't intend running about trying to convert others to my way of thinking.

...perhaps that's it... these groups feel they can't get on and do their thing in peace? ....awww... bless their little cotton socks, lets be nice and let them get on with whatever their doing as long as they don't try to convert us!

OK, how about setting up a group for people who are opposed to single-interest groups?

Cool, Ok Im going to chime in, I agree with Malcom. Im female and Im not upset at all that men want to get together. I dont understand why so many these days are offended by mens groups.It seems at times some groups opossed to "mens groups" have their own agenda, to force others into thinking the way they do. We are seeing this here, all the time, in America.It is sad when a person cant go to church and say and belive what they want, without some other group infiltrating and sueing them for "free speech" and "freedom of thought," and "freedom of association", granted to us in the constitution/bill of rights. I say join what ever group floats your boat! Have fun and be free. But dont try and force others to agree with you on everything.

Oi! ... This is a Men Only posting discussion! *laughing*

Ok Im in drag as a man...LOL giggles hahahaha!

This is a single lack of interest group
that all unmen can join.
We are not at all exclusive,
but you can't join if you're born.

wow some great points raised here.
Its really good to read the responses, some things I had not thought about before.

thanks for your comments.

I think that I agree with Malcolm and it does seem logical that it is the 'threatening' element at play when wondering why certain groups exist/ dont exist

I would tend to go along the line that it reflects an inner inadequacy.
this follows the classic psychological patterns.

I shall recede slowly with said inadequacy and try and squish it like an elusive creepy crawly

darn it

I can harm not even a fly I shall have to see it as a demon instead.

but then again

I think

why not have a poetry group called 'mens poetry group' but have it where anyone can join.

Im going to stick with my original point.

Hello everyone welcome to the men only thread where anyone can join and post.

"Welcome, we write this feeling left out.
We are left out because there is no men only writing group
We love all the other groups too and welcome them
We are concerned there is no men only writing group because it reflects an inner fear
we have no idea what the inner fear is
we suspect other groups may share same said fear or at least a manifestation of it.
we also suspect that the other group can see our inner fear like we can see theirs. else how so readily identified.

"we don't care about the group as long as it is there
we welcome all people to join
we would welcome it there like a dummy in the mouth
to shut us up in times of attention crying out"


so it comes down to psychology?>

most likely.

Steve said no one mentioned social class:
I think that would have to another thread as that one could be a post lasting forever!

oh gordon bennet what I have I started!!!

sorry everyone!!!

:-)