I did think about posting this in the blog section after considerable debate in my own mind as to whether it was appropriate to post it at all.
However, one of the regulars i think of as a soulmate, even though we are of the same sex has seen fit to consider removing herself from the community. ( whatever else you think this site is, it is a community.) The piece i've posted was never intended to be, and was written and used as an intro to a poem to use at the Tudor open mic gig last week.
Some of the points were missed but many of them hit home and were sufficient to give them something to think about. I won't apologize for appearing to waffle on here. I hesitated in case it would incite more of what went on recently but personally, i have no prejudice and long since lost stupid pride and managed to hold onto my dignity and that is the reason i use my freedom to speak without judgement of anyone. I looked in from the outside and was unprepared to get involved in the battle in the hope it would die down peacefully. It appears it hasn't.

This is intended as an excercize. It is asking the reader to write it for themselves, after reading, mulling over its content and chewing the meat from the bones of it. Call it a carthartic release or a kind of workshop where you're asked to write your own version of what you see within the written text.
Mine is far from perfect and if you feel the need to pick at the flaws, that's fine but don't expect me to sit back and take it if you're not prepared to discuss the reasoning behind your actions. :-)
Incidentally, it doesn't have a title either so you have a choice.
Here it is:-

It's been quite some time since i was last here in this place and so i have a few rhyming couplet poems i haven't performed yet so i wasn't sure which one to do. Then i spotted the news item on the website about Spring being in the air and the European brown hare and decided i should think 'long and hard about how i perform' tonight.
There's been a lot of activity on Writeoutloud recently, that's www.writeoutloud.net ( note the 'little plug' there) and all this activity got me thinking to the point of obsession and paranoiah just in case what i perform should upset anyone unduly.

My first choice was my poem called 'What's in a name' but shortly after i posted that one it became a topic of discussion because one of the regulars met their 'doppleganger', so to speak, and the characters name in mine is 'Li'l Miss Understood.' So that was out.

Then in a blast of inspiration i thought, Ah! It's Eastertime. I'll do a rainbow poem but then in hindsight thought better of it because they've been done to death, literally by one of the regulars who described an image in a petrol puddle as a dead rainbow. And if i decided to do one of the many poems including one of the seven components of a rainbow, i might be considered as a racist, which incidentally is one of the reasons i did't bring a Christian poem so as not to upset the aetheists, not to mention Jesus who was a bastard and a Jewish Christian.

But it's difficult to think about Easter without the mention of yellow, so i'm sorry if that makes the cowards among you uncomfortable. It's just that time of year.

It's the time of year when we can look forward to half priced cream eggs and not worry about how we eat it.
Holidays. Rampant rabbits, and those cute little yellow chicks and chocolate delicacies. Made in Thailand.
Sorry, i strayed a bit from the intended there for a while.

So i thought maybe i should stay relatively safe in 'shades of mediocrity', but if memory serves me right, that's been done too. Which left me with the one about the white bastards who couldn't serve up a tasty treat if they were slapped around the chops with a well marinaded trout from down stream but that would have upset the chefs, so decided i'd better stick with the tried, trusted and reliable. Relationships!

Well, that started me off again because there's been so much talk about using poetry and writing for therapy due to mental health issues and here i am wanting to read a poem where " I " the character is talking to a poem like it's a lover i screwed up and left only to come back to try to sort out our differences, and calling it 'he' in case anyone should think i'm at best gay, or worse incestuous.

At the risk of you all thinking i'm a nutcase for thinking i can talk to a poem and expect to get a response, this is my contribution to ' the one which nearly got away.' but i can only tell my side of the story because i know a poem can't answer back. Sanity is bliss. :-)

Janet.x

Congratulations, Janet, you've put up a discussion topic that is hard to argue with.

What will all the angry young men of Manchester do now?

It's hard to argue with because there is no argument being put forward. Am I missing something here? There is also no question to answer.
If you are making the point that you find it hard to think of a poem that won't offend anyone then fine. But that is a statement, not an argument.

Thankyou Steve, i do believe you are aware of where i'm coming from.

Siren, yes i do believe you're missing something here.
The point is, just because it is in the discussion section doesn't mean there has to be any argument at all.
Secondly, if you care to read through it again it asks that you might consider it as a kind of workshop experiment whereby the reader writes an appropriate piece of prose or poetry in their own style based on the message they think or feel it is trying to portray.

If you are aware of the number of users on this site who have stopped contributing or been upset by a few thoughtless and sometimes callous remarks made about them and their work, then the piece i posted might have more depth than it does on the first or second read.
It was meant to be thought provoking without the need for personal insults.

Perhaps it has no relevance to your way of thinking, i honestly don't know. Try it and see what comes of it, maybe others will see something within your piece which will help someone else. If you look closely, there are several double meanings depending on ones mood or state of mind at the time of reading it and if the reader chooses to put their own interpretation and intonations into it.
Perhaps it's about how we say it that matters and not what we say. Perhaps it will help people to realize that sometimes it might make a difference to how something is read depending on how it's punctuated, like speech.
Maybe it doesn't matter at all. I wasn't asking a question, the writing was.

Respectfully yours, Janet.x

Ah, I see. Sorry, I'm a typical man. I don't see things until they are placed in front of me and someone tugs my sleeve. Good luck with it, Janet and everyone. I have to stay away from poetry because my dissertation's due in less than two weeks....

Nabila, 'callous' in one of my dictionaries ( i've just acquired a new one.) gives the definition as being ' showing no concern for other peoples feelings.'
Your comments and critique often include something to encourage the writer to stretch themselves and to continue on their journey.
Unfortunately, that isn't always the case on here and that is often the reason the writer bites back.
Almost everyone who attempts to write wants to put their own particular stamp on it and sometimes the critic has completely missed the point of intent.
Few people have the capacity to adapt their thinking to understand every single piece of work which has ever been written. That's what discussion is about isn't it?
Maybe if some of the critics took the time to ask the poet the intended portrayal, it might affect the supposed correctness of how it is written for the intended impact on the reader?

Siren, good luck in your work and thanks for looking in.

Janet.x

Hello Nabila.
You appear to be comparing "...critics who are criticised for criticising", with writers who
"...can be thoughtless and vent whatever they like".

I am a writer. Through my writing, (poetry in this case)
I criticise, I censure, I make judgments about the world, about society, about nature and just about every thing of which I am conscious.

I try not to intentionally hurt individuals, to respect feelings, and that's self-censorship; but I can, if I choose, be downright vicious, nasty homophobic mysoginistic, and racist, and vent my spleen at whatever and whosoever I choose.

Professional critics whose speciality is to write about football films or cordon bleu cookery, can also be vicious nasty women hating racists.

But they are in effect no different from any other "writer";
Writers write.

We are all human and we will sometimes be less considerate of the feelings of others than we might be. It is certainly not a good thing to be intentionally callous or hurtful. The other side of that is that holding back from genuine opinion means that the writer remains unaware of the impressions they are creating in others.

Janet said:

"Few people have the capacity to adapt their thinking to understand every single piece of work which has ever been written. That's what discussion is about isn't it?"

Nobody has that capacity. Yes discussion is the means by which we find out more about intentions and meaning. That is why it is good to engage in the discussion even if one's initial reaction to criticism is to be upset and withdraw.

Janet again:

"Maybe if some of the critics took the time to ask the poet the intended portrayal, it might affect the supposed correctness of how it is written for the intended impact on the reader?"

I'm afraid this misses the point of criticism. When a poem is published, most of its readers will not be in a position to ask the poet about the poem for obvious reasons. The effect that the poem has on its audience must stand by itself. When a critic comments on the impression that the poem has made on him or her they are providing the poet with an insight into how the work will be seen by at least some of their audience. The great advantage of a forum like this is that the poet can then engage in discussion. The discussion may show the critic that their impressions were faulty; it may tell the poet that they have not fully succeeded in their objectives; or it may result in both or neither.

Whatever the outcome of forum content it ought to help poets who use the site to get a better understanding of the complexity and diversity of poetry audiences so that they can take account of this as they hone their work.

Hmm, as so often, I agree with you, Malcolm, when you say that these fora ought to help poets...get a better understanding of the complexity and diversity of poetry audiences so that they can take account of this as they hone their work.
This requires a capacity for reflexivity: for poets to listen to the critiques offered and to step away from the desire to defend their position. This allows us to consider the effects our words have had on others. In other words, to forget our intention long enough to understand the effect; intentional or not. If our intention is to have some effect on others through our words - be that approval, delight, anger, sadness, etc - then we need to learn of the effects our words can have.
It's not just poetry. I wrote a really serious script on my MA course a few years ago about a difficult topic. The group laughed uproariously at it. Intention vs effect.
Someone once wrote (I have the ref somewhere) that the meaning of your communication is the response you get.
Unless we are willing to open ourselves to the truth of those effects, we are unlikely to learn very much, so our work will not develop as it might. That is not to say that we should write to please our audiences. The honing that Malcolm talks about is having the ability to understand the effects our words create, thus giving us choices in our writing. Otherwise our writing is like driving a car without a speedometer - or perhaps even windows.

Well Put Julian.
I'm in agreement and you wrote just what I felt about this.

Nabila writes;

However, 'callous' I'm not sure about - critics are criticised for criticising , when writers can be thoughtless and vent whatever they like .
Common thing on here that


With respect Nabila I think you are totally missing the point of free speech via both critic or writer be it on this blog site or any other poet based site for that matter. If one wishes to rant one can rant if someone wishes to be politically deviant or satirical or even down right rude and opinionated they can. That is what they, as poets, wish and how, as poets, they wish to communicate.

Much of the comment on blogs is polite, pleasingly light and frothy and as a consequence one never gets to the real heart of something unless discussed on an appropriate posting or dissected on a site i.e. Write Club.

In recent discussions you have referred to past experiences, well not surprisingly, we all have pasts and childhood experiences, good bad and indifferent that has helped forge the data base upon which we draw to enable us to write, rant, perform or whatever it is we feel would best help communicate our interpretation of truth, humour, pathos, etc, etc.

Once again in recent discussion you state that you are frustrated and angry, I’m so sorry you feel that way but there really isn’t anything to be angry about, not withstanding the legal constraints which bind us all, the freedom of free speech is good, bad and indifferent, it means exactly what it says on the can.

Julian, you write so eloquently and your contribution to this discussion has some very valid points. Thankyou. :-)

Each writer, reader and critic has a choice.
How many of us in all honesty can say we can provide objective comment and/or critique and with-hold our personal likes and dislikes pertaining to the content/subject matter?

Whether it's poetry or prose or even a short story or play, almost all postings have a personal element.
That doesn't necessarily mean that the personal element within it is valid in the present but is often assumed as being such. It might be venting feelings as a form of expression after being stuffed in a drawer somewhere only to be aired when the writer was ready to reveal its effect at the time and after careful thought and deliberation of the effect it might have on a reader now.
The reader and/or critic isn't aware of that unless they have some personal contact with the writer away from the forum.
Therefore a little thought and careful consideration goes a long way in terms of humanity.

Malpoet, i agree where you say the advantage of a forum like this is the poet can engage in a discussion.
Discussion being the operative word. Which incidentally, write club didn't welcome from the poet, limiting them to four lines was it? Perhaps that is the reason there hasn't been any recent postings on write club? No chance to discuss. Do as we say, we are right and you have no choce or say in the matter and if you don't like it go... etc... etc...?
Many of the writers who withdraw have done so because the critique has nothing positive in the comments to encourage them to work on what is good within the work, only pointing out the flaws. Granted, that might be all they can expect when sending their work for consideration to a publisher, this forum is not a magazine and as far as i am aware (please correct me if i'm wrong) there isn't a single person here who actually works as an editer of poetry/prose for a publishing house excepting Julian.
Therefore some help in the critique from those who have had experience of their work published might be welcome because they have a good idea what the requirements are.
But that might involve discussion with the poet.
eg, is it your intention or ambition to get this piece published in which case you would need to make some changes in the way it is presented, such as .........

I do apologize if i appear to be trying to tell people what they should do. I was brought up to believe if there's nothing good to say, then it's best not to say it at all, but if you feel strongly or care enough about something, at least approach with a little consideration for the effects of your speech and actions and if you must point out someones flaws, then have the decency to let them know the good points too.

We all have it within us to over react because of our own insecurities and issues. The secret is to place those differences to one side when making an informed decision as to what is appropriate and not.
I've been guilty of this too but i did approach the person concerned and we discussed the offence and the hurt caused which resulted in an agreeable peaceful end.

thank you Julian you're spot on this is what I have been trying to say but guess it came out in the wrong approach

my own response was a human response, rather a reaction not a teacher or an editor's and you can hate me for it and resent me and i have reflected on it ( if u look at the discussion message i started a I don't want my inbox swamped with emails like last time)

and if that is not enough for you guys then this is all i can say - it should have enough value.
what i do feel though is that people should just say in the poem or profile if u want to make criticism bugger off i'm here to just share, without crit.!!!

Free speech, like free will, its line manager, is only worth defending when it is prompted by humanity and conscience.

Now read my little booklet: Ventriloquism, or, Talking To Oneself Via An Externalised Invented Persona is The Only Way To Avoid The Pitfalls Of Communication.

I thank you.

You are so funny Moxy!
I don't always get where you are coming from... but I love your spirit and attitude ; )

I wonder if that is the most autobiographical writing you have writ, Ms Mock C.
Your reflection on the topic - the other persona - puts me in mind of that Dali painting where he paints himself painting Gala, with the mirrors he uses to see himself from behind also reproduced as endless reflections of himself.
Though that is not me talkng, obviously.

They seek her here, they seek her there,
She's off this week in a bathysphere
(see previous post 'Wedding Reception' for details)