To Rant or not to Rant
Last night I was part of a discussion, after the WOL gig in Bolton, about whether people should stick to their main style of try for different ones. One of our poets has been told that he always tends to rant and some seem to think he should try something else. I don't really think that he rants all the time, rather that he reads (and performs) with heart-felt passion.
The after-gig discussion was really good - you should try to hang around after the gigs when you get the chance - easy for me I know because I didn't have to go to work until 7.00 this morning!
Anyway the discussion had to end because the pub needed to close and I thought some of the stuff raised was worthy of further discussion - so here goes....
1. Do you actively choose a style or does it just come out as you write?
2. Should you stick with a particular style or try to change it?
3. In music bands are often accused of "selling out" as their style develops and changes. Do we feel the same way about poetry?
Just to get you going, and give you something to shoot at, here are my initial thoughts:
1. I think that for many of us our style is natural, it comes from our emotions and we can't help writing in a particular way. Sometimes I try to write in a different way but those pieces tend not to be very successful
2. I think your style will naturally change over time, sometimes even over very short periods, and sometimes it will change back again. If you have something you want to say I think the message itself will often influence our style without us actually thinking about it.
3. I never thought a band changing the way they do things was "selling out" so I certainly don't think a poet would be. Life if all about growth, experience and development. If the experience of life didn't change us in some ways that would be a terrible waste.
It would be nice to hear what others think.
Seamus
The after-gig discussion was really good - you should try to hang around after the gigs when you get the chance - easy for me I know because I didn't have to go to work until 7.00 this morning!
Anyway the discussion had to end because the pub needed to close and I thought some of the stuff raised was worthy of further discussion - so here goes....
1. Do you actively choose a style or does it just come out as you write?
2. Should you stick with a particular style or try to change it?
3. In music bands are often accused of "selling out" as their style develops and changes. Do we feel the same way about poetry?
Just to get you going, and give you something to shoot at, here are my initial thoughts:
1. I think that for many of us our style is natural, it comes from our emotions and we can't help writing in a particular way. Sometimes I try to write in a different way but those pieces tend not to be very successful
2. I think your style will naturally change over time, sometimes even over very short periods, and sometimes it will change back again. If you have something you want to say I think the message itself will often influence our style without us actually thinking about it.
3. I never thought a band changing the way they do things was "selling out" so I certainly don't think a poet would be. Life if all about growth, experience and development. If the experience of life didn't change us in some ways that would be a terrible waste.
It would be nice to hear what others think.
Seamus
Tue, 20 May 2008 12:45 am
Pete Crompton
Hi Saumus
A pleasure to take part in this discussion.
I am going to give this a worthy reply tomorrow.
Its a great topic and lets see what it brings.
Really enjoyed the post gig discussion. The great thing about poetry is the chat afterwards- the meeting people. So great to hear your photo stories too. I made an active effort to get chatting, I normally kinda flit off, but I had been thinking recently and asking 'do I know these people' and I attempted to open up, I can be shy and sometimes I feel awkward in social situations but I felt last night heralded a new start for me.
Darren always has super stories to tell too, as do so many of us...yet when do we get a 'social' chance to talk, so many deadlines yet so much life to talk
let's do it again.
A pleasure to take part in this discussion.
I am going to give this a worthy reply tomorrow.
Its a great topic and lets see what it brings.
Really enjoyed the post gig discussion. The great thing about poetry is the chat afterwards- the meeting people. So great to hear your photo stories too. I made an active effort to get chatting, I normally kinda flit off, but I had been thinking recently and asking 'do I know these people' and I attempted to open up, I can be shy and sometimes I feel awkward in social situations but I felt last night heralded a new start for me.
Darren always has super stories to tell too, as do so many of us...yet when do we get a 'social' chance to talk, so many deadlines yet so much life to talk
let's do it again.
Tue, 20 May 2008 01:04 am
A few people have said to me recently that most poets do humour these days and that it's taken over at events. I think that people should use whichever form of entertainment they do best in their poems (humour, smaltz, reminiscence, horror, whatever). Humour is now accepted, whereas once humorous poems were dismissed as having nothing else about them.
A poet said to me the other day that most poets put a punchline at the end. This is slightly different from the above because it is the case regardless of whether the poem was serious up until that point or not.
Here's my poetic response:
My words are more important than yours because they’re graver - by DG
I changed the world with my written words –
I wanted to make people think.
And, the world was changed
having one more poem,
and proportionately less ink.
But, the world <i>has</i> changed in one regard:
it used to be that humour was frowned on
(and never frown on humour)
as something that abnegated depth,
to be chortled at and dismissed.
It took time to establish that other art forms
were no more valid – nor less –
they all entertained in their various ways
to varying degrees of skill,
but I’m guilty as others of ditching the depth
(that I used to include)
in this new atmosphere of goodwill.
Now, suppose you delivered a blow to injustice,
but so few people have read it
that it may be worthwhile that you said what you said,
but it wasn’t important you said it.
And, it seems that you can be comedic <i>and</i> deep;
not the mutually exclusive “or”.
This here was another bloody poem on poems
that actually said more.
A poet said to me the other day that most poets put a punchline at the end. This is slightly different from the above because it is the case regardless of whether the poem was serious up until that point or not.
Here's my poetic response:
My words are more important than yours because they’re graver - by DG
I changed the world with my written words –
I wanted to make people think.
And, the world was changed
having one more poem,
and proportionately less ink.
But, the world <i>has</i> changed in one regard:
it used to be that humour was frowned on
(and never frown on humour)
as something that abnegated depth,
to be chortled at and dismissed.
It took time to establish that other art forms
were no more valid – nor less –
they all entertained in their various ways
to varying degrees of skill,
but I’m guilty as others of ditching the depth
(that I used to include)
in this new atmosphere of goodwill.
Now, suppose you delivered a blow to injustice,
but so few people have read it
that it may be worthwhile that you said what you said,
but it wasn’t important you said it.
And, it seems that you can be comedic <i>and</i> deep;
not the mutually exclusive “or”.
This here was another bloody poem on poems
that actually said more.
Tue, 20 May 2008 11:33 pm
I think a poet should beable to express whichever style they choose poetry is after all about creativity, so why stifle someones natural ability. Now I cannot do funny poetry as I do not have that natural comedy style but I enjoy listening to those poets who can. The write out loud nights have always been about variety and thats the way they should stay because a mixture of all sorts is more entertainment than just black licorice on it's own.
Wed, 21 May 2008 09:33 am
<Deleted User> (4744)
I'm going to slide slightly sideways and say that although the style of a poem may change, the voice of the poet is usually constant. By voice, I mean the way they choose to phrase, their choice of imagery and their regard to punctuation.
I sometimes rhyme and sometimes not. I have pieces with humour and serious dark pieces, but I;d like to think they were still recognisable as mine because of the language I choose to employ.
Style I change with subject and mood. So I'm all for poets trying different styles. I feel humour takes over at spoken events because laughter isn't faked. A polite applause might mean the dark piece has left everyone thoughtful, or they didn't get it or maybe worse... thought it was rubbish. A laugh though... and your on a winner. It's a self gratification thing for new performance poets finding their feet perhaps.
Bands do change style as they mature. I think that's a good thing. Otherwise they get the comment... latest album sounds like the last one and the one before that, they are so boring and predictable these days.
Ranting... good therapy. Poetry in general is good therapy. Externalising all those emotions we might of kept inside. In conclusion ... let the rants fly!
I sometimes rhyme and sometimes not. I have pieces with humour and serious dark pieces, but I;d like to think they were still recognisable as mine because of the language I choose to employ.
Style I change with subject and mood. So I'm all for poets trying different styles. I feel humour takes over at spoken events because laughter isn't faked. A polite applause might mean the dark piece has left everyone thoughtful, or they didn't get it or maybe worse... thought it was rubbish. A laugh though... and your on a winner. It's a self gratification thing for new performance poets finding their feet perhaps.
Bands do change style as they mature. I think that's a good thing. Otherwise they get the comment... latest album sounds like the last one and the one before that, they are so boring and predictable these days.
Ranting... good therapy. Poetry in general is good therapy. Externalising all those emotions we might of kept inside. In conclusion ... let the rants fly!
Wed, 21 May 2008 09:56 am
darren thomas
What are our motives for wanting to write AND perform our poetry in the first instance? Or, to simply write and post our work on a website? Some members of WOL appear to use it for nothing more than a site on which to network and expose an audience to their writing creativity. There is nothing wrong with this, of course there isn’t -or is there? There are many sites on the Internet which cater for written verse that is better suited to ‘the page’ and they provide too, the medium with which to promote an individual’s work. Is it the friendly 'feel' of the site, and its members, which allows this or indeed actually (quite rightly) promotes it too?
The only way to find your voice in a performing environment is to, first of all, actually get up and perform. The very notion of this can be far more unnerving than the time actually spent reading/performing your material out loud - at least during the first few attempts.
"I always do the things that I cannot do - that’s how I get to do them".
There are many obstacles to overcome when performing per se - let alone performing your own material or that of another more established poet or author. Nervousness? Agitation? Hyper-ventilation!? All these physiological conditions have to be borne in mind because they can, and sometimes do, affect a person’s performance. I have to say though, that I’ve never watched anybody perform who over the following months became less capable of performing their work. This has been said before in various threads over the last twelve months but put simply - a person has to perform in order to improve their ’performance' poetry. We all have misgivings and insecurities about ourselves - but WOL provides an ideal environment for those who not only feel compelled to read and perform their work, but to actually begin to enjoy the process.
This brings me back to the comments in the last thread about styles and finding a voice. Each one of us is unique. We sometimes have a far different opinion of ourselves than how we are perceived by others - in most cases, it’s for the better! We each have different ways of articulating what it is we want to say. Some, and I include myself in this, hide behind wordology and an elaborate use of language. Other performance poets are more direct and choose to use the vernacular. It doesn’t mean that the roles cannot be reversed, does it?
Our idiolect is by definition unique to each and every one of us. Our expression and our delivery and even the phonetic sound of our words can differ from one performance to the next. The language that we use (consciously or subconsciously) will, over time, become identifiable with a particular poet. If we are aware of this - what can we do to change it? Would we want to change it? If so, why?
For me - an ideal compliment is to be walking on stage and an audience is left wondering (and anticipating) what it is you’re going to perform. Serious? Comical? Both? Usually you get a more immediate response with comedy ( the rotten vegetables are, of course, not always appreciated, but they do make a wonderful broth). You can also get a response with the serious stuff too. Like a wall of silence. If this is what you planned for, or anticipated, then you have done your bit. The secret is to get up and perform.
The other week at the poetry Café in Wigan, a group of students, some too young to drink alcohol, all read pieces of their work. There were some who performed with more of a natural confidence about themselves and others who simply recited their work. Each and every one of them was magnificent. They all appeared to understand that idea, that in order to improve, then you simply have to begin somewhere. Surely it’s not how you start any process - it’s how you finish it?
I’m digressing now - but about ‘styles etc’? If you perform your work, see how it makes you feel? Will it alter how you are thinking when you write your poetry? Writing with performance in mind can surely work the other way around too?
If all else fails - invest in a Roget’s and absorb a language. Never mind drinking mind numbing alco-pops and cheap spirits. Drink a language and taste the difference. If you want to rant - rant. If you feel that it's the time and the place, and it usually is. Although many established performance poets will tell you - sometimes a choice of poem is crucial to maximise its impact and effect in an evening's running order . What works one week just may not work the next. You only find this out by participating and therefore crediting your bank of experience with empirical bank notes - and they're priceless.
I appreciate too that I've asked more questions than I've answered.
*This ‘piece’ was written under the influence of digestive biscuits and PG tips.
The only way to find your voice in a performing environment is to, first of all, actually get up and perform. The very notion of this can be far more unnerving than the time actually spent reading/performing your material out loud - at least during the first few attempts.
"I always do the things that I cannot do - that’s how I get to do them".
There are many obstacles to overcome when performing per se - let alone performing your own material or that of another more established poet or author. Nervousness? Agitation? Hyper-ventilation!? All these physiological conditions have to be borne in mind because they can, and sometimes do, affect a person’s performance. I have to say though, that I’ve never watched anybody perform who over the following months became less capable of performing their work. This has been said before in various threads over the last twelve months but put simply - a person has to perform in order to improve their ’performance' poetry. We all have misgivings and insecurities about ourselves - but WOL provides an ideal environment for those who not only feel compelled to read and perform their work, but to actually begin to enjoy the process.
This brings me back to the comments in the last thread about styles and finding a voice. Each one of us is unique. We sometimes have a far different opinion of ourselves than how we are perceived by others - in most cases, it’s for the better! We each have different ways of articulating what it is we want to say. Some, and I include myself in this, hide behind wordology and an elaborate use of language. Other performance poets are more direct and choose to use the vernacular. It doesn’t mean that the roles cannot be reversed, does it?
Our idiolect is by definition unique to each and every one of us. Our expression and our delivery and even the phonetic sound of our words can differ from one performance to the next. The language that we use (consciously or subconsciously) will, over time, become identifiable with a particular poet. If we are aware of this - what can we do to change it? Would we want to change it? If so, why?
For me - an ideal compliment is to be walking on stage and an audience is left wondering (and anticipating) what it is you’re going to perform. Serious? Comical? Both? Usually you get a more immediate response with comedy ( the rotten vegetables are, of course, not always appreciated, but they do make a wonderful broth). You can also get a response with the serious stuff too. Like a wall of silence. If this is what you planned for, or anticipated, then you have done your bit. The secret is to get up and perform.
The other week at the poetry Café in Wigan, a group of students, some too young to drink alcohol, all read pieces of their work. There were some who performed with more of a natural confidence about themselves and others who simply recited their work. Each and every one of them was magnificent. They all appeared to understand that idea, that in order to improve, then you simply have to begin somewhere. Surely it’s not how you start any process - it’s how you finish it?
I’m digressing now - but about ‘styles etc’? If you perform your work, see how it makes you feel? Will it alter how you are thinking when you write your poetry? Writing with performance in mind can surely work the other way around too?
If all else fails - invest in a Roget’s and absorb a language. Never mind drinking mind numbing alco-pops and cheap spirits. Drink a language and taste the difference. If you want to rant - rant. If you feel that it's the time and the place, and it usually is. Although many established performance poets will tell you - sometimes a choice of poem is crucial to maximise its impact and effect in an evening's running order . What works one week just may not work the next. You only find this out by participating and therefore crediting your bank of experience with empirical bank notes - and they're priceless.
I appreciate too that I've asked more questions than I've answered.
*This ‘piece’ was written under the influence of digestive biscuits and PG tips.
Wed, 21 May 2008 11:17 am
<Deleted User> (5984)
Beautiful comment Mr Thomas and I thought it was weetabix with gave you your added edge.
Mel
Mel
Wed, 21 May 2008 12:18 pm
darren thomas
Hello Melanie - Weetabix are funny creatures. I much prefer to spend my time with the humble digestive. So unpretentious in a mad biscuit world...
Wed, 21 May 2008 12:28 pm
<Deleted User> (5646)
This is a great review, if i may use this term.
It mis formative, shows er oinion without bias, is encouraging for those who are just venturing out into the world of performance poetry.
For me,personally. in my humble opinion.A more Labradorite approach is needed here. Perhaps a lady with a blue rinse could help? Is there one of these here?
Ah yes, i see there's one tucked in the corner, tomy left :(
Water whispers with Tones orange calcite works wonders.
And i see she's a bit further away from the egyptians. I see She wears glasses too. Her vanity case went bloodstone years ago(about 3) down. When her rocky green mountain steep went south with her positive chi too.
Leaving the other side a bit jade green in colour. Requiring a New Jade to add a touch of serenity.
That rather spiritually minded black obsidian could do with a bit of meat on him, rather than off. But it's definitely noy essential. I rather like the way he writes. Has a good heart.
Haven't had a chance to visit his place yet but i'm in a bit of a jam right now..stuck in this f*k*cing net ring road. Guess i'll have to take that last right turn up that road and go all the way f***ing roundabout, and.. about again.Magic in' it. me. lovees. Them there clearwater crystal stones sure do clarify a few dim wits. That yin- yang, poles apart brought together create good harmony when under the covers or under your piller. Oi,you! O'er blurb yonder. This must be worth 50 TO GET HER HAIR DONE! Looks like it's lackin' a bit o color.
Perhaps you should" buoy her up a bit wee a bit o bluto.
You could rinse it wee a bit o that envi-go-our- ou sly.
best watch out "mate>" she's gone shoppin for a new shirt, courtesy of Frazers. Or was that a n
ew frizz bye.xxxx
Any way folks', nice to see u to sea grass nice.
u sea, her dad fell off a ladder from a fair good height, durin'
p a nting 'er new kitchen white.Snow white, for accuracy n percushion timin'. A tricki- ticka gud timin'. A rockin' n a rolo'n jus fer is fresh sent.Tee-hee! E.R. right royal flush sent 'im curvin' r-e-n-t pan. Peter Pan was that...?
O VER, OVER, OVER to Mr.Watson?
Eees gettin blurrd tekchno vish-on 2nite!
Curtsy o bend Sh"aw"man! Boo -hoo! " aw" go on luv, gee-im- a kiss..er. sorry, shud that a bin gee-nee-us 1-2.
1.
It mis formative, shows er oinion without bias, is encouraging for those who are just venturing out into the world of performance poetry.
For me,personally. in my humble opinion.A more Labradorite approach is needed here. Perhaps a lady with a blue rinse could help? Is there one of these here?
Ah yes, i see there's one tucked in the corner, tomy left :(
Water whispers with Tones orange calcite works wonders.
And i see she's a bit further away from the egyptians. I see She wears glasses too. Her vanity case went bloodstone years ago(about 3) down. When her rocky green mountain steep went south with her positive chi too.
Leaving the other side a bit jade green in colour. Requiring a New Jade to add a touch of serenity.
That rather spiritually minded black obsidian could do with a bit of meat on him, rather than off. But it's definitely noy essential. I rather like the way he writes. Has a good heart.
Haven't had a chance to visit his place yet but i'm in a bit of a jam right now..stuck in this f*k*cing net ring road. Guess i'll have to take that last right turn up that road and go all the way f***ing roundabout, and.. about again.Magic in' it. me. lovees. Them there clearwater crystal stones sure do clarify a few dim wits. That yin- yang, poles apart brought together create good harmony when under the covers or under your piller. Oi,you! O'er blurb yonder. This must be worth 50 TO GET HER HAIR DONE! Looks like it's lackin' a bit o color.
Perhaps you should" buoy her up a bit wee a bit o bluto.
You could rinse it wee a bit o that envi-go-our- ou sly.
best watch out "mate>" she's gone shoppin for a new shirt, courtesy of Frazers. Or was that a n
ew frizz bye.xxxx
Any way folks', nice to see u to sea grass nice.
u sea, her dad fell off a ladder from a fair good height, durin'
p a nting 'er new kitchen white.Snow white, for accuracy n percushion timin'. A tricki- ticka gud timin'. A rockin' n a rolo'n jus fer is fresh sent.Tee-hee! E.R. right royal flush sent 'im curvin' r-e-n-t pan. Peter Pan was that...?
O VER, OVER, OVER to Mr.Watson?
Eees gettin blurrd tekchno vish-on 2nite!
Curtsy o bend Sh"aw"man! Boo -hoo! " aw" go on luv, gee-im- a kiss..er. sorry, shud that a bin gee-nee-us 1-2.
1.
Thu, 22 May 2008 05:14 pm