Positive feedback was: variety, fun, variety, support, humour, serious, humour, serious, entertaining, supportive and friendly, good poetry, entertaining, all good!, friendly, good craic, good fun, helpful, my bits, I give up where are they?, all of it, Gemma's cake of course, friendly.

Areas for improvement were: more flapjack, your bits, have the night in Wigan, bring it closer to Wigan.

There is a Wigan WOL night, the next being on 14th May and I promise more flapjack next time!

I enjoyed last nights open mic, especially the new poets who were very good. We had it set up with tables this time as opposed to the circle and the debate still goes on what do we prefer the circle or the tables, I myself perfer the circle but as the saying goes you cant please all of the people all of time. Gorgon Zola impressed us with his crowd pleasing Tortilla wrap while Jeftarama was at a crossroads with his poem. Allen Mckane had his dancing shoes on for his first poem and Hillary Murray talked of the Middleton Weavers beating in my home town of heywood( home of monkey town). Darren Thomas told us tales of Larry the Lobster and Seamus Kelly entertained us with my favourite Push the Button. Our two new poets Ann Caulfield read of goodbyes and Michelle Greasly told of the silence we endure. J Gording captivated us with her intensly impressive poem on bullying while Janet Ramsden was a Little Miss Understood. Julian Jordon impressed us with his cheesy grin and Cherry Tree poem and even forgave my mistakinly pronouncing his name wrong. Dermot Glennon was fab as usual, Mike Robinson read a dramatical poem on not being fooled and Gemma O Neil finished the evening with a greatly recieved song called This song is about you. It was a lovely evening with many a friendly face and anyone who wanted it in wigan should go to the wigan open mic night, This is Middlton open mic that why it's held in well Middleton. Lastly thanks to Gemma for giving me the chance to compere. She's a fab host.

Aye I agree with you Katie. Perhaps in Wigan it's acceptable to rip people apart who are trying their best but in Middleton we prefer to support and encourage new poets and new comperes.

After reading certain comments I have decided that I will no longer compere at the middleton, I'l except if I'm no good at it I know where I'm not wanted but thankyou Gemma for giving me a chance but I will be one of the crowd from now on...

May i say with the utmost respect, my own comments about bringing it closer to Wigan should be taken as a compliment.
Meaning that if it was closer to home i would visit the venue more often. Of course i'm aware that there is a Wigan event.

I'm afraid my sense of humour may well be misunderstood in this case but i often don't understand the humour of Mancunians or Rochdalians or whatever either. There is no malice in my comment and i stated a warm welcome was received which i thanked Middleton for.

As for the circle, i personally haven't experienced it so cannot comment on a preference. The only problem i would have is keeping my psychic antenna well and truly closed down because circles as far as i'm concerned are for meditating and practicing psychic phenomena. But that's a different subject. ;-)

Katie, you really shouldn't give up because you feel you aren't appreciated by some members of the poetic public.
Everyone has to start somewhere and it's not easy remembering each and every poet that turns up sporadically. You made appropriate notes and did your best and that is all any of us can do. Performing or not. Gemma needs you.

Sincerely, Janet.x

I will think about it and Janet dont worry none of your comments were of any offense. Your comments were well natured and commical.

"Write Out Loud encourages everyone from who writes poetry to share their words with others in friendly, welcoming open-floor read-around and open-mic events."

The above is quoted from this very site on the welcome page. I thinks it sums up what makes WOL work so well. In Middleton that has always seemed to be well understood.

There is a danger that the gigs feedback might drift away from that ethos. I saw the comments in the book after the gig and they were pretty positive.

I'm afraid Darren's review paints a picture quite different from the sober reality - and by the way what's wrong with sober?

Seamus
Really depends on what mood your in, I'm all for encouragement but mediocrity.. never... let the critic critique... thats what enables us to reflect, reappraise, ajudge in a reviewing light... As for the losening of inhibitions using the key of alcohol... well we all go there.
I don't want WOL readings ever to turn into a PC correct evening... a Readers Digest or Ladies Friend evening ...Good Bad and the Ugly... if something stings in the morning ..at least its made you think...
Ramblin now...
Gus

I agree that consructive criticism is helpful to the flourishing poet/ compere but attacking them on a public forum just isn't on.

I agree with Gemma, but then I wouldn't dare do otherwise, would I? And Katie, you were fine, and keep it up.

I'd rather someone be writing/reviewing regular nights on the poetic circle in an honest way, rather than hearing about how 'great', 'lovely' and 'fantastic' all these nights are, where in reality, they are not always.

The Wigan night has had its criticisms, even from said critic of the Middleton night; if an event is crap, in the eyes of one person, they have a right to say so, just as someone has the right, however biased to say how great an event was.

One person's opinion does not destroy an event's status, just as it doesn't fantastically highlight it from the other events going on.

Fine review a NIGHT but don't make personal attacks on individuals however you might dress it up.

I haven't actually read the original post as it was taken off before I had the chance to see it. So perhaps I am not in a place to comment on this particular topic.

I wish I knew what on earth was going on here.
What review?

looking thru it seems it is removed?
Was it a Darren T review?
If so I would have liked to have read it, I have been reading his reviews since he joined, they can be brutal, but that is his way.

I really dont agree with deleting messages unless they are outright offensive and surely a WHOLE review cant be that can it?

We have to tolerate his harsh reviews at Wigan, and I kind of enjoy the whipping and beating, perks us up like boot camp. Truth hurts me loads but I get up and rise to the Thomas review challenges. Makes me stronger and I respect his honesty.

I'm assuming (forgive me as ASS U + ME ) but did Darren give a harsh review of middleton?

if its a personal attack I find it hard to believe knowing Darren.
However people are sensitive despite the fact that when you run a poetry night you are at risk of being criticised and must be ready for that in its many forms. Was the review just this? Or did it go beyond ?

It cant be all just nice slaps on the back and sugar coated all the time. The world is just not like that in Wigan, not sure about Middleton.

Poor Barry at Wigan, he get annihilated in the reviews but he keeps going. I respect and admire him.

If theres a personal attack beyond the context of compere/reading poems I dont agree and yes it should not be so, and i'm sorry for whoever its upset, its just I find it hard to believe or rather am suprised!


I hope Darren keeps writing his reviews as I think they are pretty much a barometer on the scene.

I am actually a slight concerned as if something gone bad I really don't think it should be removed.

Im sorry if I have got all this wrong Gemma, and I would rather discuss this face to face as I cant express my tone etc very well hear, Im trying to be devils advocate and hoping this resolves.

I must maintain my stance however and say I DONT AGREE the review (if was removed) was removed.

Sorry but it would be the thin end of the wedge.
I agree if it contained personal information and attacks then thats unfair. However I ask you to read the reviews of WIGAN by DT no one has complained and man, are they are harsh when harsh is due. In fact read thru some Howcroft ones! 'the WHY croft' was a classic, harsh but tru, some nights are just rubbish. FACT

When we bomb in Wigan we bomb good and we know it. Gives us the motivation to get up, wipe the dirt down, smak darren ( :-) ) or is that KILL the messenger, and just carry on.

the muck hits the fan every now and again.

prob is im trying to guess all this what happened and hoping I aint blundered!

ahhhhhhhhh whats goin on!

Katie and Gemm we dont see you post on here much, so I cant even get a gauge on anything.......some of us are kind au fait with each other and know what's what, eg if Darren says Pete did shit, I think i prob did do shit and think, oh my i better buck up. I cant stand it when they say nice nicey things when you know you messed up. By messing up I mean the atmosphere flat (which the compère gets bloody blamed for!), or no one turns up, or the poetry was rubbish etc. Its a free world for free opinions, we all know when something is just an insult, we read it, we see that its an insult, its common sense, harsh reviewing is different than insults..or not?

Please, i'm just offering thoughts opinions and yes im supporting DT as I respect his honesty even when it cuts me, its really important to have that mirror there sometimes. The times when I felt I was poor, turns out others thought the same, times when I thought I did well, same thing the review supported my feeling.

This is performance poetry, open to everyone, free world, free voices, the reader is hopefully intelligent enough to read what is an insult and what isn't.

as I said im annoyed I cant read the review.
I respect the work that Katie and Gemma put into Middleton im not saying that, I know how hard it is, I suppose as I said im frustrated/annoyed I cant read the review of the night as I always like to read the DT reviews.

whats goin on.

Please also Im trying to understand
I know that you have feedback forms, surely they had comments.?

Oh heck I wish we were all in a room discussing this, I hate computers sometimes!

I agree with Pete. We are a diverse bunch and comment is vital to what we do. Maybe a sentence could have been removed, not the review.

I am confused... not a new sensation for me, however I replied to Darren's review, which was, in my opinion witty and honest, dare I say even clever, but the nasty thing is, that my reply has also been removed. NOW I AM ANNOYED. I don't waste my time replying to honest opinion for some invisible PC police or whoever to remove MY comment.or comments.


Please explain Admin.

Like some others here - I was not at Middleton, and dont' know some of the people involved, so have not felt qualified to have an opinion on this.
However - I did read the review, as soon as I saw there was a Darren Thompson review posted - I read it! I look forward to Darren's reviews - thye're always entertaining,
I wasn't there, so I cannot say if his summation was accurate or not - though I do know the pub and the room and some of those he spoke of - and all that was absolutely spot on. I also know it was a well written piece that deserved to be read, possibly more so than some of the poetry that night (repeat - wasn't there - but I have read some bad poetry,much of it my own, on the website so Q.E.D really), so I, too,am dismayed that it is no longer here.
Maybe he went a little far, maybe it was a little too professional a review for an amateur night, and probably it should've been edited, but removed? - no.
Otherwise, I suspect it might just mean that from now on the only reviews that can be posted are ones that say: The evening was lovely, the people reading were lovely, all the poems were lovely, and they were read in a lovely way in this lovely venue - an altogether lovely evening.
If that be so - I have now written the last review WOL will ever need!!
Personally, I am someone who doesn't want to read about the lovely evening I missed. I want to read about the interesting one that I'm REALLY sorry I missed!
I'm coming up to Wigan on the 14th of May, I don't know yet if I'll be brave enough to read - maybe I'll wait and see who's writing the review!
Cx

Gus
Are you sure that your comments have been removed? There are two threads about the Middleton night and I think your comments are on the other one.
Paul

Yes I am aware of that Paul, and I did spend time this morning searching and also since your reminder...but to no avail...but it is early and I still am covered by a thin Guinness mist.
Where's dat mouse...

I'd like to appologise about this big mess. I may have been over sensitvie to Darrens comments and took them to heart. I didnt mean it to escalate into a big thing. I will be compering next month at middleton and hope we can put this whole mess behind us. Being a new compere my confidence was somewhat knocked partically with me being a quiet person normally but I will endeaver to improve and hopefully one day I can come to wigan, as I have nothing against the place and would enjoy sampling a different night. I am also sorry the review was removed , I know others would have wished to have read it and made their own opinions, which is fair enough.

As those people who complained about my review didn’t feel the need to contact me personally, I’m making an assumption that they’re quite happy for me to reply on this open-forum. Assumptions, as we know, are often foolish, and their consequences have a habit of coming back before being forced up a bottom. But hey...?

I removed my original review for two reasons. First of all, I had a skilfully crafted e-mail from the Microphone stand who called himself, rather unimaginatively, ‘Mike’. Mike argued that he WAS more animated than Katie Haigh and he rightfully cited two occasions when he was removed from his stand, and several more when his angle was adjusted; albeit slightly. I had to agree with him. With her. These modern microphone stands are often androdgenous. Which adds to the confusion. He then lamented about the day when he had centre-stage at a recent Yorkshire folk festival. Where he fell over, and I quote ‘ because I was practically loose legless’. He became all emotional when he recalled the day he was spat on. Another day when he was kissed against his will. It really was a tearful read. In the end, I agreed with him. Anything for a quiet Mike.

And then, the Self- Indulgent Vocalist police phoned me directly. Where they got my number from I have no idea. I have enemies, sure. But furnishing my number to those people is as vindictive as it gets. They’re ruthless. They have to be I s’pose. Self-Indulgent Vocalism is a threat to world peace. Those people who indulge are taking over the world. Take ‘Britain’s Got Talent’ (no, please - take it).
This is a conspiracy. Only the other week a hairy person walked on a stage and was practically ridiculed on sight. The audience were filling their prejudiced, smoke-rotten lungs with enough air to shout and boo the hairy person back to where she came from. Then she started to sing. And that same stagnant air was used to power the highest and loudest of whistles and snorts of astonishment.
If Write Out Loud’s ethos is all about poetry then why do some members feel that we want to hear them sing? I have a talent. No, I do. It’s not for writing poetry and it certainly isn’t for performing poetry. I play the spoons. You know, those least used shiny utensils we have harbouring in drawers. I’m not brilliant but I get by. I have two spoons in particular that I prefer to use. I did have three. One spare. But it ran off with my Satellite dish. So, me and my remaining spoons tour the world - on our own. In our own little fantastical world. They’re with me now at these International Cluedo Championships. I think I mentioned that earlier?

Which brings me back to Middleton. It was lovely. The poetry was lovely. The performers were lovely, and the venue was especially lovely. Lovely. Lovely. Love-lee.
After paying my lovely pound (a lovely ‘voluntary’ contribution) I thought that empowered me to do one of two things. 1) Get lovely blind drunk. 2) Make lovely comments about the night.
I thought, again, in a lovely foolish kinda’ way that if a person wants to put themself before a lovely subjective audience then they should at least consider that not everyone will think in the same lovely way. Praise from a Mother is no praise at all. It’s lovely – but it ain’t praise.
If we’re to nurture lovely ‘talent’, talent that we expect to flourish, then that ‘talent’ must be aware of its limitations. Even the greatest talents have their limits. To encourage somebody into doing something that they are clearly not comfortable with, is providing that person with a great disservice. No matter how noble it may make the person doing the ‘pushing’ feel.

Anyway, my time on here is complete. Write Out Loud has provided me with many things, not least an opportunity to talk bananas. If anyone would like to comment about my lovely comments’ then my e-mail address is on the site. I’ll not be making any more contributions to this site. (Hoo-rah!)
And as the Octopus said when it lost its legs – So long suckers.
Incidentally, Katie Haigh is a poet whose written work I enjoy.

Ooh, and here’s the original review...

Last night I had a really funny dream. I don’t dream often, but when I do they’re often vivid. Sometimes they scare me; once in a blue cheese they’re erotic, but more often than not, they’re simply a few scattered images that my memory struggles to recall in any great detail. If I can ever muster enough enthusiasm to recall them in the first instance; which makes this morning all that more disturbing.
This morning I climbed out of bed with a sluggishness that I’ve come to expect. Only this time, I was instantly troubled with some stark, vivid and often harrowing images in my mind’s eye. Almost immediately, I could practically feel the dread begin to coarse through my narrowing arteries. So much so, I was conscious of my fat face developing an instant sheen of anxiety. I was just about to sink deep into a full blown, mind altering panic-attack before I realised that those stark and vivid images were not a by-product of reading books about Narnia, they were simply memories of last night’s Write Out Loud poetry event. The relief? You simply cannot imagine.

It was my third time in Middleton. My third time at The Boar’s Head. And, quite frankly, enough - is - enough. It’s a long trek from Wigan. No, it really is. Remarkably, I discovered that it’s the same distance to travel from Wigan to Middleton as it is to travel from Middleton to Wigan. For some reason, I always thought it was a hundred miles or so further away when travelling from Middleton to Wigan. Or Middleton to Bolton, even? Maybe Middleton is surrounded by an imaginary force-shield; or a tangible one – like the one in ‘The Simpsons Movie’, with just a star-gate for strangers (anyone NOT born in Middleton) to unknowingly commute through. I dunno. It’s as perplexing as it is frustrating. Yet I’ve now given it a fair coat of looking at – and I can die a happy man. Safe in the knowledge – I’m missing nowt. Which is a mystery to me. Well, not so much a mystery. More a mur-der myst-ery. Let me try to explain.

I was sitting inside a game of Cluedo. That’s what it felt like. The setting of the Boar’s Head poetry night was taking place inside a board-game - and I was part of it. And not one illegal substance in sight. Honestly. No, really honestly. It was brilliant. Once I’d turned the poets into my own characters, and by ‘characters’ I mean of course ‘suspects’, then the whole evening took on a completely different slant. For a start – I began to enjoy it.

Gemma O’ Neil, as co-compére, was above suspicion. So too was Katie Haigh. I doubted that Katie could rustle the enthusiasm to open her mouth or bounce an eye-brow and at least afford the impression that she was marginally more animated than the microphone-stand she was standing behind; let alone bludgeon some unsuspecting member of the audience over the head with a piece of lead-pipe.
The room played its part too. I was in the study. We all were. Or the library. Definitely NOT the kitchen or the Billiard Room. The oak-panelled walls and blurred picture-portraits all reinforced the sensation. So too did one or two members of the audience, who, quite unashamedly, appeared as if they’d come straight from the imagination of an over zealous make-up artist – with a surplus of ‘fast approaching shelf-life’ products. High-backed chairs. Heavy oak-tables. Candelabra. Leaded windows. Flutes of wine. Resonating wooden floor. Crushed velvet curtains. Mood. Atmosphere.Someone definitely died here.
Personally, I couldn’t think of a better place to be asphyxiated to a violent and premature death with a piece of rope; or shot between the bones of sagging shoulders with a revolver; poked to fatality with a dagger; buggered to death with a candlestick; have my nuts tightened to a pleasurable death with a spanner; fleetingly being aware of that ‘metal’ taste in an shocked open-mouth before a length of lead-piping sees you on your way into darkness. This room had it all. Although I may have exaggerated a tad when I mentioned ‘atmosphere’. Afterall, murder is a serious business. Second only to poetry. Ooh, and drinking. Heavily. With a passion. I didn’t pay too much attention to the poetry. I had my reasons. I’m self-centred. Arrogant. Ignorant. And I was fiddling with my apertures. Which was met with some scowls as I clicked away around the audience members. They knew I was on to them. The murderer. I was taking pictures. I had, without knowing it, captured the offender on camera. The skill was – to reveal them before the evening was complete and they had chance to escape. I faintly recalled a secret passage being built into the blueprint of the house but the slippery, murdering scum wasn’t going to slip through my fat-fingers.

Gus Johnson became Reverend Green. With no obvious motive, he quickly became a suspect. There is always a motive. I would watch him like the proverbial hawk. Slippy. Shiny. Precise – not in the least bit ‘reverend’. Hmmmh.
Paul Blackburn morphed into Professor Plum. Not least because he’s suited to the word ‘plum’. However, I deduced that a man who has died on stage would not have the heart to take another person’s life. Their poetry yes. Life? No. Eliminated.
Janet Ramsden was now Mrs White. Her beady eyes revealed nothing, but somehow her relentless appearances at these events raised my suspicions. Motive? Quite possibly. Remove the competition?The means with which to commit such a crime? Ooh yes.Time unaccounted for? Well, I didn’t see her all night. She had more than enough time to slip away, as they say, and do the deadly deed. It was getting exciting.

Julian Jordan became Colonel Mustard. I imagined that he would be perturbed at this reduction in rank – but for now, I would have to be discreet with my suspicion.

An unknown lady was already Mrs Peacock. She arrived like the social butterfly. She hammed her lines on stage in a thick ‘northern dialect’ which was an obvious parody of working class and was almost too painful to listen to. She had no morals. She had no awareness of her audience and its reaction. She was my number one ‘prime-suspect’. Mrs Peacock – the heat is on.

At this point I was asked to read. Well, not asked. It was simply my turn. Standing in front of all of them, I felt like a standing in a Judge’s chambers. Reading a verdict to a contested will. Grieving relatives; their insincerity was palpable. ‘When’s it my turn’? ‘Hurry up and get to me’! These feelings were practically spoken out loud, just by the look on their intense, shiny faces. So I gave ‘em ‘Larry the Lobster’ before sitting down seconds after.

At the interval, my mind was wandering inside a soup consisting of board-games, the Stately-homes I had visited, Sherlock Holmes films that I’d watched as a child. Hammer-House Horror. Period dramas. Murder Mystery Weekends. Everything - except poetry.

After the interval and the cakes, I decided if anybody had a motive greater than me to kill in cold blood, then frankly; I would shake their hand. I would even provide them with whatever I could to help them carry out their crime. Lead-pipe? Rope? It really didn’t matter. The victim was already lying in a pool of indifference. Write Out Loud in Middleton. Haemorrhaging itself to death. Beaten with a piece of Sunday night television. Kicked in the billiard balls by Captain Smirnoff.

It is sometimes difficult to know how serious, serious people are being when they write serious stuff on here, but I really do hope that DT is talking complete and utter bullshit when he claims that he is not cgoing to contribute to this site in future.

A lot of people have made it clear that we need quality contributions from people who think carefully about poetry and the gigs.

Of course there will be times when the words cause upset. It is in the nature of being emotional beings. We get over it and things get sorted.

Stick together and all keep contributing.

Well said - Katie and Mal both!
Cx

I must make it clear that Darren removed his own post then put it back on this thread, there was no censorship.


To Darren:

I'm not really bothered what you say to try and ridicule me, i.e. the suggestion that I was showboating when i sang. Why didn't you just say something to my face about it at the end? If my singing annoys people I'd rather know than not, thanks.

What you didn't do to me was to ridicule my whole demeanour and personailty which is what I'd felt you had done with my good friend Katie. I am a very loyal friend.

I read the review.
Its not so harsh is it?

I think it may be insensitive towards sensitive people.
You need thick skin in poetry

Im hoping Katie will see that its just Darrens way, or was, as he has gone. Im sure he means it, that he has gone.

I got the impression he was becoming disillusioned anyway.
I will miss him on here.

Christine I think you make a a great case on your post.

Thing was you always relied on a Thomas review to get the version of brutality, I needed that for my shows/readings, it was valuable.

I read the review a few times and its tame compared to others.
I do see Gems and Katies points but what happens in the wider world? I mean lets say WOL does a roadshow or something and we got a newspaper review that kills us? It happens. We have to be able to take it without getting defensive I think. Or do you disagree? I'm open to discussion etc

Is Darrens implication that Katie could have been more animated in order to become a better compere? I'm not sure this is always necessary, perhaps it depends on the night. I mean what is th e point at ranting and raving in the Boars Head? What is the point of doing what I do and turning it into a kind gameshow, the venue and evening is not about that, so perhaps Katies gentle approach fits into the evening? I feel somewhere in the middle. I would like to see Katie continue to develop her compering skill and to get to the place she is happy with (if not already there)

Has Middleton thought about taking it in turns to compère? Or having guest compères? Or is it to do with cartwheel arts ? (excuse my ignorance on this) We do rotate compères at all the other gigs.This way others get the chance to try it out.

If I were just starting out and I read a harsh review of myself It would upset me as I am pretty over sensitive, I have learned to control this over the years, it does still boil over sometimes.

The singing thing, well I heard Gemmas voice and its angelic.
Does it belong on poetry nights? Is it that it shifts focus onto the singers abilities and not with the poetry night? Why not celebrate an individual. All our talents. I could turn up in a dress and could well get remarked upon, I think they would be justified.Well Mike played his bongos once. Whats the harm. If Gemma substitutes a song for a poem I think that's ok, so I disagree with DT on that point.

The prob I had was the deletion of the review, I understand now that it was voluntary, but the whole thread should have gone if that was the case as the rest was not making sense.......bit like me now!

Lifes too short, I love a sing a long if I know the words
lets all sing.
that includes you Darren, c'mon it will cleanse us all...................

At the end of the day, Katie has accepted there was no real malice meant in Darrens review.
Surely now we can all move on?
As Pete rightly says, some poets/comperes ideas of what a performance poetry event is supposed to be like is very different to others. Many of them encourage singers especially when they bring an instrument such as a guitar etc.. but it isn't everyones cup of tea. Each of us is entitled to voice our opinion about any event and it is up to the people who run it to either ignore or to take on board the comments according to what they want from their efforts and that particular venue.
In my own opinion, the last time i visited Middleton, it was held in the room by the bar. Although there was a little noise at the back where people were coming and going, there were spectators who wouldn't normally enter a closed off from the public room. I thought it created a better atmosphere but some of the regulars complained they preferred the intimacy of the usual room. Again, it depends what the organizers want from the evening, trying various methods and discover which one works best for the pub and the poets and which way brings in the most poets which will also generate punters for the bar.
Incidentally, while i stood at the bar at the end of the evening, a lady spoke to me saying she enjoyed poetry and had a lot of respect for those brave enough to stand up and read theirs out loud but when i asked her why she hadn't been in the room, she said she wouldn't have been comfortable because it was separated from the public. In other words she would have felt like she was intruding because she didn't participate. It made me wonder how many more would feel the same.
Excuse me if i'm wrong but isn't the general idea of performing poetry in public meant to include them and gain their respect and give them some insight that poetry is good, alive and kicking and often in touch with the real world?

Again, please don't get me wrong here, this happens in other live open mic gigs too. If the venues want privacy for the poets then advertize it more as a read around because to my mind the word '' performance'' now has new connotations.

As for Darren.
He will decide for himself whether to stay off the website or not. Personally i think it is a great shame if he does stay away. Yes he can be brutal but i know he doesn't ever intentionally hurt anyones feelings. I know that from personal experience on this site and away from it.
This will be a dull place to visit if he goes for good but everyone has a life to live and he's given a lot of time to the site since he joined. But hey. Look on the bright side why don't we. Everything will be lovely, lovely, lovely. NOT.
:-(

I feel with this situation it is like I'm Abagail in Salem and Darren is the highly respected John Proter. I wanted to say I dont mind critism if it's construtive. I have been approached on many an occasion and told I speak too quietly and need to amplufy my voice and that I had my head hidden within the paper my poem is written on and I know Darren was just being Darren but at the time I felt it was a personal attack at my personality and there was no real advice for what to improve. As I've already said I was overly sensitive, I am natured that way and need to develope a thicker skin.

As for the compere issue, if others want to compere or a rota of some sorts to be added, then that is fine and admin will have to make their choices as to what they prefer.

The room, if it is preferred in the more public room, maybe we can try this out for a while, obviously the right people need to approach the pub landlord and see if this is acceptable. I can see both points of view with this. Yes it will pull in more people and does but I can also see, that the level of noise can affect this. I think last time we had it in there we didnt have a mic (not sure) but if provided with a mic I feel it would work out well. Again this is admins choice.

Finally I would like to say I di try to talk to Darren one to one on the online chat and appolosie for my sensitivity but he wouldnt respond to my chat. So I did try. Again I am sorry it has escalated into this fiasco. I am not an controntational person so anyone who knows me knows I wouldnt intentionally start trouble.

I would just like to mention too that I hope others wouldnt harbour negetive feelings for Gemma. Her only crime was sticking up for a friend. She knew how upset I felt at first and was just being supportive and a very loyal friend and I think we can all understand that. I thank her for being so protective of me. And also Gemmas singing is beautiful to hear and I have only heard good comments. If anyone feels it is inapproacate, maybe thay should talk to Gemma herself.

Please excuse my penny worth of humble mumble. I wasn't at Middleton but I read the review and its apologia pie. The review was ascerbic. It was clever and splashed with comedic invention but at the expense of fairness and feelings. It was, in places, summarily personal and cruel. Katie was the brunt of an extended jibe. Everyone else was ridiculed. The evening, evoked as a game of Cluedo with its stereotypical avatars, was disparaged. If I had been written about in such a way on a public site I would feel dismayed and, yes, somewhat distraught. True criticism is marked by a sincere attempt to be constructive. Darren's was an opinion piece written to 'showboat' his talent. Nothing wrong with that if it had been built around a shared joke and a generous sentiment. The continued riff about the microphone stand pushed it into a personal attack. The reinstated review with its foreword continued the damage. Okay, people have a right to their opinions but they also need to respect the right of others not to be flagged up and humiliated or insulted so publically. WOL Middleton is simply an evening of people sharing poetry, and like every other event of its kind it's not always going to be a shimmering spectacle -- however it should remain an event where people feel they can try their work out without fearing they are offering themselves up as targets of ridicule. Criticism is one thing the review did not constructively offer.

A suggestion for the future? Write reviews in E-Prime -- simply eliminate the verb 'to be.'

These spats tend to fizzle out and everyone is redeemed and born anew into the next verse.

Honesty is to be applauded, criticism is also to be applauded – neither needs to be hurtful. Those performing poor poetry but brave enough to get up and have a go also deserve at least polite applause. Actually discussing what happened on the night would also be applauded.

It seems to me that Darren spent a great deal of thought on the clever wording of his post, and I know from listening and reading that he is very capable with language, so he really should have known where he would cause offence.

The comments about Katie have been discussed already.

The comment “An unknown lady was already Mrs Peacock. She arrived like the social butterfly. She hammed her lines on stage in a thick ‘northern dialect’ which was an obvious parody of working class and was almost too painful to listen to....” refers to a lady who actually said before she read that she had written this piece to be delivered by a particular male voice and that her attempt at dialect wouldn’t do it justice.

In his review Darren said - “I didn’t pay too much attention to the poetry. I had my reasons….”

Perhaps if people want to write a review they should pay some attention to the poetry and write about the night that took place rather than something like Darren’s “Last night I had a really funny dream…” story which was clearly posted in the wrong place.

I’m not in any way suggesting some sort of censorship, or that people should say everything is great when it isn’t, but don’t offend people and if you do as Darren did then expect a reaction, like the one that occurred here, and perhaps be prepared to apologise.

By the way there was some really good stuff that night in Middleton. Why not read Katie's review below because she took the trouble to listen and make a few notes about what was actually being performed.

There you go. Notice the absence of the word lovely (damn! It just slipped in!)

Honesty is as honesty does.
Darren writes excellent reviews. No editor of a major journal can afford to ignore his talents. so, why do they? Such literary gatekeepers would, though, in the main, consider the sideswipe at Katie as a lapse of judgement. Some writing is best when specific in nature; some is better written - and funnier and cleverer - when conveyed more elliptically.
Given that WOL aims, amongst other things, to give confidence to inexperienced writers, performers and comperes - and reviewers. Katie did very well as compere, considering her relative inexperience. Darren does very well in his usually funny reviews, considering his relative inexperience.
Colonel Mustard, in Marsden, with the lead pencil.

Ha ha Pete.
I assume when you say 'poor Barry at Wigan' you mean me.
I actually once had a good review as an 'up and coming poet'.
I get told one minute that I am the most avant garde poet around, then get slated for being shit. I will be at the next Wigan do and I haven't decided how yet, but I intend to make this my shittest poem yet.
Thing is I dont care. WOL invaded my local and I have loved it ever since. I've heard some very high quality words.
Back to this thread, I compered at Wigan and was atrocious because I was pissed and didn't take it seriously. But I didn't get slated when really I should have been.
Compering is actually quite difficult, and this comes from a bloke that has lectured to classes of 100's.
No one thats trying should be slated unless they're bein paid.
However I'll see how bad I can be at Wigan if WOL pays me.
Tee hee

Barry
yea I was saying that you just take it, but to do a double take it takes all sorts.
I'm looking to a replay of the (WIGAN)mattress scene and the Gothic girl to high heel boot.If we can persuade Katie and Gemmy to venture forth upon Wigan..................nowt in this game for 3 in a bed. DRAT! look what you could have won! a Speedboat, we can be hugh heffners the girls can be whatever they wish...bunny girls, poets singers, malenesses, belladonnas.....whatever............Middleton/Wigan combined power yea!

clash of the poets, a poetic fusion, who knows....its the closest to Bordeaux this side of the summer!


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This thread has resolved itself.Sorry I drifted off topic. Perhaps it should end on a zany note.....................................................
Well done everyone for keeping this civilised............................

BTW The Bed Scene is a poem/performance piece that (Wigan)Barry does and its brill!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Where is Middleton any road? Sounds like the sort of place you get darn sarf - spiritually, anyway ... if Darren's review of what went on at the Bores' Head is owt to go by!

As for singers, and "self-indulgent vocalists", they should be "bludgeoned in their beds" as Morrissey might put it (especially if they do mouldy old covers at a poetry event).

The best show in town right now is "Darrengate"... Sam Brady himsef couldn't have been more incendiary.

Come on Mozza... "I never realised, I never realised, you wrote such bloody awful poetry!"

Would you care to elaborate?