I was reading AA Gill in the Sunday paper today and his coment about haiku "I've ever got the point of. Aren't they just limericks which don't make you laugh?" got me thinking that it was about time I said something about haiku rather than just making the odd comment from time to time.

First of all Adrian they are nothing like limericks. Despite the name giving the impression that they are Irish, limericks are actually a very English metrical form. When well done they can be very engaging and I am all for well delivered humour. The form does lend itself to atrocious pieces, but that is not a reason to discard what is good. Haiku is a different matter altogether.

Haiku is a Japanese poetry form associated with Zen Buddhism. It has variations in type, but mostly it is short, nature related verse contrasting two elements.

It is not possible to place the first English haiku, but it was around the late nineteenth, early twentieth century in north America and Britain. At that time it was linked to or evolved from a French symbolist school.

Harold G Henderson who is considered to be a major authority on English haiku said "It seems obvious that we must build our work on Japanese norms, as any too great deviation from them would result in poems that were not haiku. And, yet to accept these norms in their entirety is literally impossible." Yes, quite Harold.

What exactly are English haiku writers trying to do? Japanese is a tonal language written in characters vertically down the page. English is none of these things. It is not possible to translate the Japanese concept of syllables into English quite apart from questions of the number of lines being incapable of transfer and breath points being centrally important to Zen, but usually having no significance to English writers and readers. Actually, for many Japanese it isn't possible for anybody to write haiku without a sensai or haiku master.

With their ideas of brevity and 'objectivism', haiku (or hokku) appealed to Amy Lowell and Ezra Pound with their Imagist movement. This is also one of the strong origins of the 'show don't tell' mantra that is so commonly repeated, but that is another subject. Since them there have been a host of movements, schools and societies trying to set rules for haiku in English. Their outpourings are pretty similar to medieval theological disputes on how many angels could balance on the head of a pin. Like the inquisition, the sooner they all disappear up their own arses the better it will be for poetry.

Anyway what I really think it amounts to is that if you are interested in poetry rather than achieving transcendantal bliss you can forget trying to mimic any Japanese style and get on with writing good stuff in English. If you want your poetry to be short that's great, but there is absolutely no point in restricting yourself to seventeen syllables, or three lines or any other constraint. Therre is nothing magical about any of these rules and they really don't have anything meanigful to do with Japanese haiku either.

It's the thought that counts, nice ones if possible.
Language is a means, not an end.
Bill

I agree Mal, If you can't speak Japanese don't attempt to write it...other than to take the wrm and gentle piss out of vainglorious poets who believe they have mastery of image in seventeen sylabals.....

'Go forth and write short poem that has begining and end that makes sense Grasshopper'.

Thanks for the comments guys. Sorry about the typos in my piece.

It should, of course, say 'never' not 'ever' in the Gill quote.

Obviously you should do what you like to do in poetry, but I do feel that poetry is primarily the use of language as an art form. English is capable of an enormous range of expression and if English is your primary language it is probably a good idea to use it for your poetry. There is no need to apply constraints or draw spurious additional insights from other languages.

That is not to say that the study of other languages, arts and cultures is not enriching. It most certainly is. It is debased when such knowledge, or pretended knowledge, is used as a means of boasting, snobbery or a means of demeaning or belittling the work of others.

Paul Muldoon did some interesting things with haiku - he made them rhyme! (Check out his books The Annals of Chile and Hay)

Actually there is a whole branch of haiku'ers who rhyme their haiku. Each to their own I suppose.

Which is better, a haiku or a cinquain? There's only one way to find out ... FIGHT!

Allegedly the cinquain was invented by a lady called Adelaide Crapsey. Says it all really.

Anyway I'm up for a fight. Name your seconds Steve.

I suggest three rounds of two poems each round. Your place or mine?

Who started all this talk of fighting? That's not very poetic, is it? Anyway, I'm not scrapping with you, Malcolm. You're too nowty. And I'm frikened.
Here is my cinquain. It's called 'Geocentric No More' ...

The world
Is aged now;
Its wonders are fading.
Our outlook is geocentric
No more.

Oh! Crapsey cinquain
A Yankee haiku methinks
High poo bit stinky

"but I do feel that poetry is primarily the use of language as an art form."

Yes - that's a bit like saying that oil painting is primarily the use of oil paint as an art form.

Here's a coupla spring haiku:

bare twigs yet the nights
grow shorter as buds unfurl
one bird note sings oh!


some daffodil hope
along the verge smile and take
your coat off mister

Had a go, inspired by you, Mr Waling.

Daffodils draining
Bile from every hellbent bag
Twigged in the world wind

Had another go: it's about Spring again. I suppose.

Duvet devoid of
Sleep's density: the open
moon plunges its tongue

I love you so much
You are so inspiring
So wrapped up in you...

I love you so much
You are me but not enclosed
In what makes me me

I love it ; )

Give me all the love
And adoration also
Makes my heart melt so...

I reall like your misleading 'simplicity' that twitches and flips into something with barbs: gorgeous stuff! And then, again, the unhidden sentiment which is active and audible. Here's my reply again to yours.

Vehement mauling
Of shadow by noon sunlight.
Revenge at nightfall

Oh, that's gone a bit threatening, hasn't it? I'd best have a biscuit.

I really should be working... but I cannot resist ; )

I am such a flirt
Flirt with me and you will see
Oh what fantasy!

I am supposed to be working, too, but what the heck. You have to have a spot of rebellion or you begin to comply.

Here's another, newly minted. About a bag. Probably one of the ones torn to flitters in the previous haiku. Maybe it makes a cohesive whole, like the parts of a cracked eggshell?

BAG

Bag is a system
Of duration: accurate
Measure of lost time

Ha ha... must agree...
there is more than a spot of rebellion with me though...
rules never really did apply ; )

Your words are profound... You should post some poetry.
Voici un en français...

Je t'aime mon amour
Oui, tu es le seul pour moi
Ne me quitte jamais

Francine, what beautiful haikus: the haiku in French is especially mellifluous.
Well, I should be setting the table for dinner but, instead, I've written 2 haikus. I haven't written a haiku (or a poem) for a while, for some reason, then I get all prolific.

Here they are:

The firm handshake is
A terrier worrying
Him. Is he a rat?

and

Blooms burst in the heat
Of solar-powered missiles.
Economical.

I must have caught a bad case of minimalist poetry.

Well... being prolific... that's not so bad is it?
Must be a time issue...

Thank you for the compliment - I actually whipped them up
in just a few moments time when I should have been working -highly addictive the Haiku - but I was having too much fun ; )

Please post a poem
that is something beautiful
of human nature

Waiting... so post something already!

Hi Francine,
I wasn't going to post again but couldn't not (ping ping double negative) reply to your haiku.
Here's a few smatterings of haiku (Haikule Poirot) and, yes, they are a bit addictive!

Christ's disciples saved
Up enough cash to send Him
Swimming with dolphins

A Man on the Moon
Is worth two in suspended
Animation. Yeah?

Ghosts twist because it's
A jagged, centrifugal
Dance that drills through walls

Commemorative
Tectonic plates embossed with
The buds of mountains

armadillo gloom
like an unwound apple skin
or a loose nostril

I think I should leave it there for tonight, don't you?

Hi Folks,

Mind if I toss a few in the pot?

An apple falls up,
accelerating away,
defying Newton.

“Buy me an ice cream!”
Ordered the pumpkin faced child.
Sly seagull watches.

Cherry juice dripping
from lips I’ll never kiss again,
staining forever.

The fat man wobbles.
A vibration from within,
an escape attempt?

“You are an orchid.”
He said, confusing his words,
and meaning cactus.

Archaeologists -
can they ever contemplate
their fossil future?

No future in milk
say the disgruntled farmers.
Such an udder waste.

Belt and braces man -
prepared for every setback -
but diarrhoea

Petal red lip gloss,
as slippery as eel slime
and cockroach shiny.

“We are not amused.”
He knew she never would be,
she never could be.

Ah well, worth a shot!

A.E.

Hello A.E. Fabuloso haiku! What a joy to wake up to such fecund hillarity. I've written some back -- as in your call, my response.

Newton Delicious,
with a sat nav offering,
alternative routes

Pumpkins go shopping
At Hallowe'en for human
Heads to hollow out

Child flavoured icecream
With seagull sprinkles, and flake
Made from peeling skin

Cherry stones round his
Grave so the mourners can count
What became of him

Wobbles in fat flesh
Are the ripples of pile drives
From cage fights inside

“You are an orchard,
I am that painter who makes
Portraits from stacked fruit'

Archaeologists's
Watches emit water drop-
Lets, the Mists of Time

My goodness! It's Haiku madness!
I absolutely love these... Brilliant!

Moxy...

Ghosts twist because it's
A jagged, centrifugal
Dance that drills through walls

AND

Archaeologist's
watches emit water drop-
Lets, the mists of time

And Anthony...

"You are an orchid."
He said, confusing his words,
and meaning cactus.

To you... for now... (it's a bit early for me!)

Forever a smile
Never a frown to start with
Love and happiness...

Just in case I may not be romantic enough...

Why do I love you
Each day and every night
Because you are you

My love cannot hold
All that is within my heart
Be mine forever

Il n'y a rien de plus beau que l'amour...

Tectonic plates dance
erotically causing
knee trembling shock waves

Love it!
I'll have to come up with some more now...

Hello my brilliant fellow Haikulettes

Fab Mr Paul and Francine.
Here's another response to yours -- bringing in moon (love) and, um, earth. Sort of.

Hysteria’s a
sports centre run by the moon’s
Dark side, a brunette

Moxy fronting the
Haikulettes, Motown for those
bereft of 45s

Meanwhile..

Gun toting Daisys
terrifying people, that's
real flower power!

i went off and found one i wrote in 2005 i think it was after an earthquake or some manmade disaster .

search for an answer
dig deep into the rubble
find a flower, smile

Ha ha -- what fun for all, eh?

Here's my response:

The bishop blessed clouds
Everyone drenched in sudden
Downpours got baptised

Daisy botching a
Taser together from roots
And wild lightning bolts

More silliness - haikus on haikus:

casual greeting
to botanical gardens,
a breezy "Hi Kew!"

outside the chippy
soggy with northern drizzle
- I offer "Hi queue!"

I stick out a thumb
in the vain hope of transport
- curt response, "Hike you!"

surfeit of topspin,
snooker pro offers advice
- "Not too much high cue."

no inspiration
for short Japanese verses
reveals low I.Q.

planting a tree for
American President
called it the Ike yew.

Scot in the dairy
struggles with low milking stool
and teats of high coo.

pigeon in tall tree
high powered rifle bullet
sad end to high coos.


Enough! Enough! I hear you cry!

hee hee

The devil in the detail
stops that big picture
falling on your head!

Daisies pick pockets
as lovers lie on them in
blissful ignorance

Anxiety is
two red headed bicyclist's
throbbing hemorrhoids

Too much fun... I am laughing so...

Not crying just yet
Oh my! What fun and laughter
We are here to stay!

*****

When I think of you
My heart melts and I want you
I feel so in love

Erotic Novels
Fill my nights with so much lust
How I want you now

If you think I am
Then I must certainly be
All that and much more

We all aspire
To be inspirational
And to help others

Be yourself always
Never give up on your dreams
Believe in yourself

Tu me manques beaucoup
Je ne comprends pas pourquoi
Mon coeur est brisé

Oh how I want to
be with you! Please remove the
restraining order

Stark as the moonbeam
smiling above stocking tops.
Hi Andrew - Hi Koo!

However you try
Japanese poetic forms
Just do not translate

(although I do approve of the venerable Mr Blackburn's introduction of enjambment into the form!)

Loving this thread. Great fun to try and do. Whoo hoo!


What fun, how jolly!
stick your pipe up a gum tree,
smile and get a life. :-)

and...

I'm enjoying this,
tra la la la la la lee
waspy stings for free.

In response to Siren...

Whatever you say
It will never go away
It is here to stay!

My love has left me
To cry such indignant tears
What shall I do now...

And Paul...
I burst out laughing when I read your response - too funny!

Indignant tears turn
to murderous thoughts. Time to
hire Dermot Glennon.

What is a haiku?
It's seventeen syllables
arranged like this verse.

Time has gone forward
minutes have turned to seconds
what will Wol do now!


PS. has anyone else seen that yet?

Such are unintended consequences.

I really should not have started this thread.

Siren || thanks for
‘enjambment’. I looked it up
and found Caesura!

Now I’ve discovered
caesura! || I’ll use it
in all poems I write

|| || || || ||
|| || ||, || || ||
|| || || || ||

I call the last one – “blank verse” ha ha!

Malpoet...

Do not have regrets
They will only bring you down
Smile... and enjoy ; )

Paul...

Dermot Glennon huh...
Well I truly hope that this
Does not come to bear...

*****

I am laughing so
No more tears for now at least
Laughter cures the heart...

Francine, it's so true
laughter is good for the soul.
Oh, and Mal. Thankyou! :-)

I wondered why my ears were burning.

Anyway, here's a poem I sometimes start with:

Isn’t it just like talking only more shit?

By D. Glennon


Hi, my name’s Dermot
I write macabre poems,
all about death.


This one’s a haiku,
it’s called: “The Introduction”,
it goes like this:

‘Hi, my name’s Dermot.
I write macabre poems,
all about death.’

So Siren Sensei --
None sense and a sense of fun
Degrade the zen form?

Incendiary
Eared Dermot you are Scary
Muse's wild fuse wire

Japanese tweezers
Pluck ideograms from your
Occidental chin

What is the sound of
One hand prodding sushi? Tree
Falls on lone diner.

Enjambement is the
Foie grass of poetry.
Forced over-fed thoughts

Caesura is the
Caesarean of verse forms
Too posh to end stop

Malcom...

You have a lot to answer for by starting this thread! lol

As a serial blog poster of Haikus on this site I have found it hard to resist being drawn into this rediculous banter... Until now. Until today when I have just seen DG's haiku intro post. I liked it a great deal as a start to a reading.

Winston

Winston. How could you?
Ridiculous banter huh?
Bang those bongo drums.

As ever, Moxy is right on the nail. I was under the impression for years that the caesarian section procedure was named after Julius Caesar, who was reportedly born in that manner. This, I have since learned, is complete rubbish. 'caesarian' comes from the Latin root word for 'cut', and is therefore closely to related to 'caesura', being a line cut in half by a full stop or even dash. DG will tell you that caesuras and enjambment and the like are arbitrary and virtually meaningless but he is an unromantic curmudgeon. He even claims that my advocacy of 'trans-stanzaic rhyme patterns' (a sort of macro-enjambment) is arbitrary. Just because I made the phrase up!
Anyway, you can't really use trans-stanzaic rhyme patterns in haiku so they're not my favourite form at the moment. Although I am all for brevity in poetry (E. A. Poe was very interesting on this point) I think haiku tend to give more pleasure to the writer than the reader - subversive witticisms aside that is - I have never read a serious one that has impressed me. It's like trying to do origami with one of the tiny bits of paper from an office shredder....

Did I put my haiku in the wrong place?
I am puzzled by whats a discussion and whats a blog?
never mind whats a haiku?
Freda