...and deep pockets??? Its not a question of poverty, nor is it careful husbandry of accounts, its just plain tightarse go to the opening of an envelope if its free mentality.Why when cigarettes are averaging £7.00 a pkt and many poets smoke, and a pint of beer averages £3... is it impossible to obtain reasonable entrance fees to a gig a sum between £3 and £5 is almost guaranteed to bring attendances down. Our own W O L desperate for funds to maintain it has also fallen victim to the 'cheapskate'.

How much is a gig worth?

How much should we all be paying as a annulised fee to WOL...?

I pay £3 without any concern but might also baulk at £5.

On the subject of paying a WOL subscription, I know I would respond to guidance on an advisory voluntary rate for those who can afford and value the site. As it is, I tend to cough up a spontaneous tenner each time the site goes through IT difficulties as it reminds me these things do take some work to maintain and improve! I'm probably alone in that, but would welcome a six month reminder saying something like "your contribution in Jan 11 was much appreciated, and we wondered if you might, with no obligation, like to make this a habit!" or perhaps even something which advises how much the site costs just to host would be a useful prompt?

Similarly if there are venues we're in danger of losing, if there was an awareness of the cost of room hire at the various venues, people might consider an additional voluntary contribution if they perceive the alternative could be losing the night should it start to fail to break even?

It's a hard topic that one to answer, as every night is different but certainly with prices shooting up, it makes you wonder how people afford it. For years now, whenever I do gigs or open mikes, I may have a pint of lager later on in the night once my work is done, but rarely before simply down to cost nowadays – I’m not on good enough money (and I work full time on a fair salary) to afford four or five pints at least three pound a pint.

I think people need to ask themselves two questions;

a) where does the money go.

and

b) is a) justifiable.

If the answer to b) is yes, then all is well and good. If not I would say vote with your feet! If all the wol gigs money funds the website, then I would have thought that was justifiable- to me it is.

Though perhaps concessions should be available to those in financial difficulty and related shortfalls could be made up by voluntary contributions (call me a socialist). I can say I have donated in the past (a tenner).

At our gig ThePoetry Spoke, the situation is different for a number of reasons. We don't have the advantage or the funding requirement of a website. We also operate in a location where there are lots of poetry nights that run for free. This is something that ensures charges for entry are a non runner! Something difficult to deal with when trying to provide something quite different from other nights.

We provide a £20 prize at every event for open mic poets, we do require raffle prizes and we provide a Guest Poet and Guest musician at every event. Plus we are in a swanky wine bar.

How we manage it, get people a great night and avoid passing on costs?

a) No website- no funding.

b) Our £20 prize and raffle items- self funded from a raffle- plus any welcome 'voluntary' contributions.

c) Any shortfall is made up by the goodwill of myself and my co-hosts.

d) We make zero money in terms of taking anyone's money from our event. We only aim for the event to be self sufficient or as near as can be.

We take nothing! Every penny gained is put in the prize and raffle items to maximize benefit to our poets. The entertainment is kindly afforded by our guests for free. top quality guests are willing to be part of such events for free because the ethos is one of everyone pitching in. It's all for the sake of art and entertainment and not being about making money.

e) We do not pay for our use of venue, this is very important! Almost nobody should be paying for use of a venue!

The fact is it should be a symbiotic relationship between organiser and owner. The organisers are affording the venue owner with a pub or cafe etc with a room or more full of paying customers- usually on a night that would not pay the owner nearly so well. Some owners still operate under the mentality of hiring out rooms for function. Such people need to be convinced by the organisers, that putting bums on seats is just as workable a model when it comes to them making money.

Like I say MOST poetry nights should NOT be paying for the venue (something I found out thx to the experience/help of Steve Regan). IF they are and you face a charge going to the venue and you are NOT getting a website (unlike wol). You have to ask yourself; is the cost simply being passed on to you! Are you simply paying for the organisers expensive taste and lack of acumen?

Some organisers will counter this point.
We are in the city center etc...To that I would say, drop the ego!

Go and hunt for a venue and don't rule anywhere out, city or not. Negotiate a free venue in the city or move out slightly- unless you want to pay for the night as the organiser and leave poets money alone! There will be some exceptions, granted. But that is what they should be- exceptions.

P.S

ALL events organisers should be able to answer your questions in regard to any costs with transparency/clarity and truth.

all imo.

Just to add there are loads of great nights across my area of the world.

We have some tremendous wol and Wirral events for instance.

Most events and organisers are probably doing the right thing for little thanks; simply to improve the poerty scene...worth remembering.

They have short arms cos they wear them down by constantly scribbling away at writing poerty - OF COURSE! ;)

This is a thorny subject. Asking for money from people is never easy. Some people are hard up, others are tight, others use may use WOL less so are not inclined to pay for it...

How do you make a tariff that suits all and is fair without alienating new members who haven't had chance to fully appreciate the fun that can be had on the site?

I don't think you can be too prescriptive in the poetry world because so many poets aren't well off. I do think that WOL could be a bit more up front about asking for money though. Maybe mailing out subtle requests to members who are obviously using the site on a regular basis or sending reminders to contributors who haven't contributed for over a year.

It is very easy to lose track of when you last contributed. A year can pass so quickly.

When it comes to venues, I don't think a 2 or 3 pound entry fee would ever put me off going to a venue. What counts most for me is the atmosphere at the venue I am going to and whether I think I'm going to enjoy myself there.

I would never go to something like Preston Wordsoup or Lancashire spotlight, where I have to pay to get in and then find out there is a closed list, which has been booked up for weeks and weeks in advance....

I would also avoid like the plague venues where the compere takes over and where individual musicians bang out one repetitive samey song after another...

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I would never go to something like Preston Wordsoup or Lancashire spotlight, where I have to pay to get in and then find out there is a closed list, which has been booked up for weeks and weeks in advance....
Unquote

I would definitely not bother going to events with closed set lists. Closed set lists are exclusive rather than inclusive and punnish those arriving late to a venue or not in the know- usually that is new people..the very people any event should be encouraging.

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I would also avoid like the plague venues where the compere takes over and where individual musicians bang out one repetitive samey song after another...
Unquote

Not seen any such venue..you'll have to spill the beans so we can avoid 'em.

I still say people should be asking where is the money going and is it justifyable.

I mean it is different with wol due to the website. But why should other events be charging? I mean mostly it is people reading their own poems in pubs. Why should that be chargable, why should someone make money off of that and the poets?

I say that they shouldn't and there shouldn't be a charge unless that money is going back into the event and coming out as prizes or such like.

In short why should anyone make money from you reading your own poems?

Seriously?

The cost of the venue is mostly a cop out as I have already explained.

The only places I've paid to get in are Sale (an art gallery and WOL venue), Preston Wordsoup and Lancaster Spotlight.

With the latter two the rooms were a bit more up market so perhaps there was a cost impact there - perhaps there is an advertising cos also - or a fee going towards musicians - who knows? It would be good if you knew where proceeds were going to. As I said before, I have no objection in paying for a good night's entertainment. I will not travel long distances to go somewhere with a closed set list though.

Both my bad experiences were in Lancaster and Preston. Preston had one average musician who was given 2 lengthy spots - in Lancaster there was similarly no control over how long individual poets were allowed to perform. The compere also fancied himself as a comdian and went on forever...

I do like a mixture of music and poetry but it needs to be managed well. I found the balance fine at Morden - hopefully that will be the same at the poetry spoke - will try to make it next time, if it doesn't clash with my hols. x

All that makes sense. I've never been to those two events...but I agree completely with you in reference to closed set lists. I've been as far out as Hebdon Bridge a few times (2 hours round trip). I've also been to Middleton many times (hour and a half round trip)...I would never have gone to either had they operated a closed list.

I really do think transparency of any costs is a must with events. I think people deserve that as it allows for informed decision making.

For me as long as costs are justified, I'm ok with 2/3 quid. I wouldn't be happy with anything beyond that because I'd already most likely be paying a tenner upwards on petrol to get whatever the event was. Of course even 1 quid that was just for someone's back pocket would be totally unacceptable...unlike wol which is funding this site.

I think u would like our new event/venue, its a big upgrade from Morton and the balance is the same. Be good to see ya...

Hey guys, no one, - absolutely no one - has ever 'made' any money in Write Out Loud or from any of its activities. Quite the reverse.
But, if we had done, so what? We provide a service which many people appreciate.
It is a bit galling to be told how we should run something that is, at base, a free service that a few of us provide for you and all the hundreds of gig owners and poets across the country.
Some of the rhetoric here is naïve. All events cost something. Our coordinators do not do their coordinating for money, but for the love of it; the ‘goodwill’ of which you speak.
The income from our six regular nights does not cover the cost of our public and employers’ liability insurance cover, which every event should have if it is not to leave itself liable for injury to volunteers or public, paying or not.
Chris, I take it you do have insurance? You might want to tell people, in the interests of transparency.
Donations to the website, very gratefully received, do not cover the increasing costs of the web hosting, the ISP; let alone any other costs.
We are considering how to generate income for the site’s continuation, including sponsorship, advertising or charging for some services.
Now, if we can fill the Arvon course (see news item and newsletter due tomorrowish), that will bring a few hundred quid into WOL. So please spread the word around your networks.
Any help with that will be much more useful than... well, than criticising.
And, if any of you want to offer help with some of the menial but vital tasks, such as fielding emails, acting as our Facebook editor, so forth, that would make a huge difference. Just please don’t expect an answer this week as I am up to my oxsters.
Perhaps one of the Wigan regulars could offer to have a collection at each month's event? Or a raffle?
If you can tell people about, or use, the new 'review this gig' facility on every gig in the gig guide, that will help, too.
Or just send an email to Fatima saying thanks for all the hard work she put into translating that Bahraini poem for us. Or just keep doing what you are doing on this fabulous website that you are all part of and all make what it is. Magic!
Thank you.
Right, back to work.
Cheers
Enjoy!

I think we may be talking at cross purposes here Julian. I never took anything Chris said as a criticism of WOL or WOL events. Nor was anything I said intended to undermine anything you do here on WOL. Apologies if that is that was accidentally conveyed.

I think Chris made it clear that he understood the need to fund the website by whatever means. I think he was questioning why other non WOL venues charged entrance fees.

I take your point that anyone who gives generously of their time and energy, should not necessarily do so for free. Perhaps we get back to the point that Gus was making.

At the end of the day I think most people vote with their feet. A venue is either worth the money or not and a lot of that is down to how it is managed.

I think we are all grateful to the many members of the admin team, past and present, who have made WOL what it is today. I see no reason why they shouldn't profit in some way from the many hours of work they put in - particularly if that is coming from advertising, rather than arts funding, which seems to be drying up in today's climate.

Given you have chosen to overreact to me Julian I will quote and respond to you accordingly step by step and we shall see where that gets us. If you expected to say what you have in such an antagonistic manner, so OTT and expect no response then you have made more than one mistake;

So let's get going then;

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Hey guys, no one, - absolutely no one - has ever 'made' any money in Write Out Loud or from any of its activities
Unquote

Fantastic then. As that is how it should be and it is exactly how all the events on the wirral are run and how I have been involved with events as well- I approve.

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But, if we had done, so what? We provide a service which many people appreciate.
Unquote

If you had as long as it was transparent then that is fine. On which note the thread opening question and most responses here were about events per se and in general and not about wol or your events. Where people such as myself spoke of the events; unlike you they have spoken respectfully and in a decent and logical manner.

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It is a bit galling to be told how we should run something that is, at base, a free service that a few of us provide for you and all the hundreds of gig owners and poets across the country.
Unquote

Show me where I have told you how to run your events? Rhetorical- you cannot do so because no such thing has happened- so you should saved your righteous indignation. Show me where I have told you how to run your website cost wise? again...you cannot do so because no such thing has happened- so you should saved your righteous indignation.

I spoke about event per se and gave my opinion nothing more nothing less. I am entitled to my opinions and I stand by them. Either you did not read what was in front of you or you misread and misapplied your statements to my cost- for which I deserve an apology. That said you DO charge for ALL wol events, so you are quite incorrect to say that your service is free as it it plainly- is not. I have stated plainly/clearly that I do NOT object to this given the website and overall situation. That was my brief comment in regard to you, your events and this organisation.

Go back and re-read and you will see how gratuitous your response is.

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Some of the rhetoric here is naïve. All events cost something.
Unquote

Show where I said that events cost nothing?
Again this is your misguided response to my words. At NO point did I EVER say that events cost nothing in the wider context. I in FACT CLEARLY pointed out that MOST events (aside from wol and a website) should incur no cost to poets (different point). I said that because a CLEAR business model exists whereby; Poets fill venues and poets drink alcohol or coffee etc and as a result venues can be obtained FREE of cost by organizers, so that poets do not have to pay entry fees.

I am unequivocally NOT naive and I say this because I run an event that is FREE to enter which also affords a £20 prize at every single event- FACTS! Furthermore ALL the events on the Wirral are FREE entry and they also all work and have done for many, many years- FACTS! In the case of the Wirral Ode Show, it has run for over 15 years in this manner- FACT! I perfectly understand this business model, it is clear and obvious and I am running it right now-FACT! So please don't insult me with with patently untrue positional statements to suggest what I am saying is naive. What you mean by 'naive' is 'unworkable'. This is FACTUALLY untrue and has been for many years!

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Our coordinators do not do their coordinating for money, but for the love of it; the ‘goodwill’ of which you speak.
Unquote

Good- so do I. The idea that I suggested otherwise is utter paranoia on your part and an insult- again you should apologize.

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The income from our six regular nights does not cover the cost of our public and employers’ liability insurance cover, which every event should have if it is not to leave itself liable for injury to volunteers or public, paying or not.
Chris, I take it you do have insurance? You might want to tell people, in the interests of transparency.
Unquote

Anyone who attends our event or the events on the Wirral- attends a pub. These pubs are insured in respect of customers, the rest is utter politically correct nonsense. To suggest that they are not covered by insurance is FACTUALLY- wrong. If this is an attack and it certainly seems like it is daft.

I remind you yet again... I have NOT at ANY juncture attacked you or wol/events- NOT at any point- FACT. I can only think again that you have lost the plot.

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Donations to the website, very gratefully received, do not cover the increasing costs of the web hosting, the ISP; let alone any other costs.
Unquote

My donation to your website should certain as you say, have been gratefully received! To state it as your have almost implies otherwise, something that would be a disgrace. I am NOT responsible for your business model or your operating costs. That is your own issue- please do not place them at my door- especially with such an insulting manner.

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We are considering how to generate income for the site’s continuation, including sponsorship, advertising or charging for some services.
Unquote

Good for you- the site has and is good as are the events and I hope things work. It would great if we didn't get terrible responses from you- the site and events are working well after all.

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Now, if we can fill the Arvon course (see news item and newsletter due tomorrowish), that will bring a few hundred quid into WOL. So please spread the word around your networks.

Any help with that will be much more useful than... well, than criticising.
Unquote

I state for the last time. The original post was about events, I responded speaking about events. I was not speaking about wol, except where I specifically stated as much. Where I did speak about this site, I was in fact not critical but supportive, something you have entirely misunderstood in your ludicrous response.

After pub posting? Irrespective you should reconsider your entire position and comments they are so far wide of the mark and insulting it is embarrassing.

How does one follow that?
If there is a cost attached to running WOL (the website) then the members should share it. The more successful the site (increased membership) the less expensive per head.
I have never to this date paid anything to WOL and am considering what I should pay for my participation/viewing/commenting etc.
My only other interest on the blogosphere is with an American writer's site and they last year appealed to their members to stump up the hosting fees. I remitted $25. The response was overwhelming and the result is that they could afford the fees for three years into the future.
Anyone with half a brain who looks at WOL regularly notices that out of the total "members" very few actually participate (and would therefore be prepared to stump up some cash to allow it to thrive).
Sad as it seems these people seem to be serial joiners and don't really do much else.
I will send a donation to WOL shortly and will hope many others do too.
On the matter of outside events, I know almost nothing of the running costs so cannot make much of a contribution. Other than to say in many parts the pubs are just happy to get people in to buy beer and don't actually charge for a corner of the room where an inpromptu event is taking place. They might even sell grub too. Possibly a midweek night is best when the pub is quieter would assist this.

I readily admit that I am not "in the performance scene" so please don't rip my head off if any of these comments wrankle those more experienced than myself (not difficult).

That all said WOL is a very good site with a lot of talented people in it. Power to the poets!!

Just as a matter of interest - why is wrong for people to make money from poetry readings?

Good post by Graham...logical and nothing at all wrong with what was said.

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Just as a matter of interest - why is wrong for people to make money from poetry readings?
Quote

I'll go into detail Steven...if I sound harsh it is just speaking about the situation and nowt more (telling it as I see it).

If something is being provided for poets, such as a website and the money funds the website and that is transparent then there is nothing wrong with that (wol). If money is being taken and that provides prizes or competition funds etc again there is nothing wrong with that. If the money is going to charity/good causes then again this is fine if transparent.

So long as any money taken is being ploughed back into an event, to good causes etc and profit is not being taken then there is nothing wrong with it.

There maybe exceptions, but always transparency should be there and choices for the poets should be informed ones.

IF you are asking why it is not ok to make profit that goes into someones back pocket from people entertaining themselves! to take profit to go in someones back pocket from people reading their own poems in a free venue!

Then I would have thought the question is rhetorical as the answer is abundantly obvious.


Jokingly....

If you disagree with me;

You are MOST welcome to walk past me in the road any time you like...I will ask for money from you and you presumably will be fine about handing it over.

I can also come over to your house and listen to you read anytime you wish and again you can hand over some money lol.

The scenarios I have mentioned may seem absurd but have a commonality that is obvious. Hopefully you can see it, If not it is not for the want of trying.

Again joking....

I co-run free events and you are most welcome to attend, provide the entertainment/art for yourself (as everyone does).

The venue I obtain for free- but you are welcome to pay me money (unlike everyone else) despite the fact that I am paying out nothing and merely attending like yourself and offering some of my social time.

I have no problem you handing me money to go in my back pocket for you providing the entertainment/art pmsl.

I have made the situation transparent after all ;)


P.S

Again I include the caveat that there maybe some exceptions, but that is what they should be exceptions to what I have said.

If someone can point out logic that makes any sense whatsoever that contradicts my position, I am more than willing to listen and review my own thinking. I doubt anything is going to come to light that can provide a credible counter-argument; but am willing to be proved otherwise.

I was rather hoping that no-one would take Steven’s bait and that this can of worms could be put to bed. Since that is not the case, I will pull at them like the last man…

I do think there is some naivety in the belief that everything connected to arts should be given for free. Would you class the freebie newspapers given away in train stations to be in the same league as the Times or the Guardian? For quality, sometimes you have to pay – though admittedly not always.

My favourite poetry performance venue (The Tudor) is free. The entertainment comes from the rich hue of characters amongst the poets that frequent the venue. As you rightly point out Chris, the poetry is provided free by the attendees and there is no charge made by the pub cos we buy that back in drinks. Some venues charge. With WOL it is easy to understand where that money goes – the maintenance of a website must be a costly business. With non WOL venues you have to assume the money goes on the venue or paying musicians. If you started to question every fee, you just wouldn’t go anywhere. For me, whether I agree with the fee depends on how well it is run and whether I enjoy myself. If someone is making a small personal gain it is not relevant.

When it comes to a website or a newspaper, you sometimes need the right people to make it work. Those ‘right people’ are entitled to make a living, unless we expect them to live and pay mortgages on fresh air. I suspect Gus was making a valid point when he set up this thread. We pay to be members of golf clubs, health clubs – just about any clubs – so why do we expect our arts for free? It is clear that WOL struggles financially. How could it not do, with few donations and no paid advertising? Perhaps we should all just be counting our blessings for the people who do so much for no return and hoping that solutions are found to the lack of funds. Somehow I don’t think organising the occasional raffle here or there is the solution to the problem. Something much more radical needs to happen. I’ve no idea what the future of WOL is but I for one would not begrudge any major time contributor from drawing remuneration if there is anything to draw it from…

I agree with what Izz says. Running a website like WOL can be onerous and challenging, and depends very much on the goodwill of the individuals at the centre who actually get little or nothing out of it - generally the latter I understand. I'm sure we're all very grateful for what people have put in and continue to put in.

So far so good, but what about the future? What happens if Julian is taken out by an American drone or becomes obsessed with stamp collecting? In the medium to long term WOL has to be set up so that the departure of any one individual can be coped with. Is there any other way to do that except ensuring that there is a flow of money to the centre for administration? It should be reliable (albeit modest no doubt) and enough to ensure that someone is properly paid for what they do. That way, someone will always keep the show on the road.

How WOL gets to that point is a tricky one, for Julian and others, and we should all wish them well in working it out.

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I do think there is some naivety in the belief that everything connected to arts should be given for free.
Unquote

They are your words not mine. I have made no comment whatsoever when it comes to the wider issue of 'the arts'. I made comment upon poetry nights- nowt else.

What part of what I have said is naive when ALL of the events on the Wirral run entirely for free and always have? What part of what I have said is naive when the Tudor has run for free?

By the way free venues can be found in any city- and that includes London.

I already clearly stated at least a dozen times now that the situation differs with wol and wol events in general because funding is required for the website- something that makes sense. Something I don't think anybody is or has complained about.

The original issue I remind people was NOT simply wol, I think everyone has got a little wol obsessed in this discussion. The issue was poets not stumping up cash to go to poetry nights- in general! Only then did Gus go on to talk about wol.

I made reference to wol, but wol is far from the be all and end all of poetry nights- I was for the most part talking about the wider picture.
Open mic poetry.

Most poetry nights do not have the unique funding issue that wol has. Most do not provide a useful website/arena such as this. It is ONLY right and proper to question where any charges may go when considering poets are in effect entertaining themselves/each other. It is also perfectly reasonable to want to make informed choices/decisions, particularly in tough economic times.

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Would you class the freebie newspapers given away in train stations to be in the same league as the Times or the Guardian?
Unquote

Not an appropriate model or comparison- utterly different.

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For quality, sometimes you have to pay – though admittedly not always.
Unquote

Examples?

I know of great nights and venues that are free that are superior to nights and places you could pay to go to. Often such venues require payment because of the lack of acumen of those running them i.e they have not negotiated a free venue.

We have had top quality poets and musicians within the context of open night mics in a high quality venue. The entry cost is NIL.

That is because I do not line my pocket and nor do the other co-hosts and because we carefully chose and negotiated the free venue. The same is true with other quality nights/venues.

WOL nights fund a website that is expensive by the sounds of it, gives a place/forum for people. That costs and has to come from somewhere, so no one should begrudge that and I don't think anyone does (repeating myself for the sake of clarity).

But seriously why should venues providing nowt other than the night charge money?

Typically speaking....why?

I accept that there might be exceptions, but I maintain that is what they should be- exceptions.

Please don't give me the quality argument because I have seen some of these venues, some of them have been no where near the standard of many of the free events- ThePoetry Spoke, The Bards, The Tudor, The Ode Show etc.

This is not about wol versus Wirral events both provide value and an understandable model.

This is about why other events, events that do no provide a website should charge- other events in the context of open mic poetry nights...not newspapers, not a night at the opera etc lol.

Surely there is no longer any meat upon this bone?

LOL - clearly there still is Graham.

Chris - I see nothing inappropriate about the comparisons I made with newspapers - particularly since WOL has several articles and features within its own home page...

The point I was making was that a bunch of morons could not produce and upkeep a high quality website - or venue. Intelligent people are more likely to do the job well. Those people have a right to be paid for it if they have committed a lot of their own time in the organisation.

I understand the point you are making about not having included WOL in your earlier criticisms. Rather than re-iterate all the points you have already made, why don't you just make one clear statement.

'I disagree with charging for poetry venues other than WOL, for all the reasons I have already stated'

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Chris - I see nothing inappropriate about the comparisons I made with newspapers - particularly since WOL has several articles and features within its own home page...
Unquote

Extremely tenuous in the extreme.

The issue at hand was poetry open mic nights. Not specifically wol, not the website and certainly not the very specific nature of features or news within the website.

Come on Isobel- if you must argue a point you need to get it right from the start lol.

If you get it wrong/tenuous or off note from the inception. I understand that- it happens to us all. But to try to move into a position more tenable- you need somebody far more lacking than myself in order to to do that lol.

You were and remain incorrect in this regard. Your Newspaper comparison was and remains inappropriate and non relevant.

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I understand the point you are making about not having included WOL in your earlier criticisms.
Unquote

You did indeed and I appreciated your response in that regard- thx very much.

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Rather than re-iterate all the points you have already made, why don't you just make one clear statement.
Unquote

I already did- repeatedly!

Actually the problem with discussions on this website is the fact that;

No matter how correct you are, no matter how logically and devastatingly correct and cogent you are....

No matter how repeatedly obvious you are... People still manage entirely to miss the point. It is utterly painful.

I have posted on discussions where I have supported freedom of speech and have been attacked for being in favour of those that wish to limit freedom of speech.

I have been attacked for being an elitist by those that have inadvertently supported elitists when I was in fact the one supporting inclusiveness by attacking elitists haha.

I have spoken up for poets and have been mistaken for speaking up for those not doing so, the reverse etc.

Frankly it is a joke.

I support poetry personally on every level- with my feet and money- that includes wol and all other open mic nights. In terms of wol even...in the last two years I have probably supported more with my feet and money to more events than anyone else outside of Paul Blackburn and Julian (some old school guys maybe up there). I was a regular at Middleton for nearly a year, at Wigan for 2 years... been to Bolton and took others many times. To Hebdon 2/3 times etc.

I support all the Wirral events the same way. I also utterly bust my balls with my co-hosts to bring about an amazing open mic night...ask Pete Crompton.

The problem with discussions is too many people skim read and the dots don't join up. For that reason I think I'm going to leave all this crap behind. Sick and tired of stating really decent viewpoints that are utterly uncontroversial and still ending up taking on- a world of shit.

So funny that nobody here attacked Gus (god love him) who attacked ALL poets for being cheapskates!

So funny that nobody backed the logic and viewpoint that I presented of protecting and backing poets in a dignified and purely honest manner.

So funny that nobody even agreed or backed transparency of costs.

Like I said a joke.

P.S

Anyone wants to make an earning- go get a job or a career! Don't try and steal from poets in open mic situations! And no ffs that is not related to wol.....for the billionth time.

Have really simple discussions that are all entirely opinion based that never bring logic into it...

I have really loved the way that some think it amazing to make one line comments or random opinion based off the cuff comments in such situations as though that in any way affords some gravitas.

I'll Leave you all to it- best of lol

Going back to er...poems and er poetry events...rather than this tosh!

Chris, if you re-examine the initial comment made by Gus you will see that this discussion thread was intended to be about funding for poetry in general including WOL and not exclusively about poetry venues – my comments embrace that.

When I talked of naivety I wasn’t directing that comment at you but at my earlier self and anyone who perceives the issue in a black and white kind of way. I like to think that through the course of a discussion I can be persuaded to see other points of view – though I realise that isn’t the case for many…

I really don’t appreciate the high handed, patronising tone that you have taken with me. It is clear from your comments on this thread and others that you see yourself as the authority on many issues – in fact the only intelligent spokesperson for logic and reason… Whether a link is tenuous or real, surely has to be subjective – not something you personally can determine – so on that score I refuse to agree with you.

I am always dismayed by the way discussion threads spiral downwards into bickering. It would so help if people could accept difference of opinion in a gracious, non confrontational way.

Socially I know you to be an affable and pleasant bloke, so with monumental effort on my part, I will restrict my response to this.

Isobel x

I've been considering starting an open mic here in Aggie, maybe WOL maybe not. This thread has practically put me off. I started a thread asking for any tips and that certainly died the death. Not very encouraging.

well , sorry i cant read all this , but just caught isobels comment at the top , preston word soup is a top night isobel i saw some amazing folks read and the guest one time was Robert Shearman , not someone i readily recognised the name of at the time , but he read some amazing short stories so i looked him up ... world renowned writer and good egg :) worth every penny ... that my companion paid to get me in :)

Shoeless - you may be right about the Wordsoup - my impression of it was coloured by the fact that I had travelled a long way, arrived on time and yet was not allowed to perform. Not many performance poets take kindly to that. I suppose it is a question of finding the venue that is right for you. If you are there just to spectate and listen it doesn't really matter.

I suppose there are good and bad artistes at every venue and you can pick a good or bad night. I remember the time slots being very rigouressly imposed at Preston, which isn't a bad thing...

I would join Steve in urging Ann to set up a venue. There seems to be a shortage of places to read down your neck of the woods. Do you live anywhere near Anthony? Perhaps you could collude on it?

Interesting thread.

I would think that Gus answered his own question on the initial thread..Yes it can affect attendances if there is a charge.

And so to the question of maintaining a well produced website such as WOL?

Has anyone thought about an annual fee asked of poets?..This could actually be asked for at the initial regestration?

One site I joined many moons ago asked for twenty quid a year from the members. I coughed up the subscription although I thought it a little expensive.

This site is far superior and I wouldn't mind being asked for a tenner every six months.

Also having to subscribe (making it compulsary) tends to appeal to those who love their poetry, enjoy a heated debate, leave then come back and usually buy each other a drink at the various venues!

And when something has been paid for I find it the norm that people use it more frequently..lol..gotta get your monies worth!

Just my thoughts of course..

Perhaps concessions for those who are financially in a bad position?.

Again just my own thoughts on the matter...

The tale is told of a clinical psychiatrist who had a patient who believed he was a corpse. The doc had tried all sorts of ways to help his patient then hit on an idea. He asked him, "do corpses bleed?"
"Of course not!" replied the patient.
The doctor grabbed his finger and cut it with a scalpel. Sure enough, he bled.
"Good God!", said the patient, "corpses do bleed!".

To be serious for a moment . . .

I guess poetry events, just like everything else, are subject to free-market economics.

Would I pay good money to see/hear a great poet give a great performance (in whatever style they deem approprite for their work - just plain reading or "performing")- damn right I would!

Would I feel equally at ease in stumping up my hard-earned to sit in front of a succession of half-drunken amateurs on a big poetry ego-trip - all enthusiastically vying for their "fifteen minutes of fame?"

Of course, if some of those self-same "poets" were to be say, "friendly, intelligent, interesting and welcoming people" I'm sure that might make great deal of difference as to how I exercise my purchasing power - and, freedom of choice.

Regards,

A.E.

Julian,

You know full well it's Impossible to extract blood - from a stone.

Regards,

A.E.

</quote>If something is being provided for poets, such as a website and the money funds the website and that is transparent then there is nothing wrong with that (wol).</quote>

So the bar can make money on increased drinks during a usually quiet night, thus ensuring the livelihood of its bar staff and landlords; the poets can go away with satiated egos and possibly sell a few copies of their pamphlets should they have them;

but the poor organiser, who has to organise with the pub, do publicity, print posters, spend an hour before hand setting up and wondering if anybody is going to come tonight or if he's going to be left on his ownsome, be the genial host and announcer and deal with a host of competing egos (including, let's face it, his own)
...is to be left with nothing, or better yet, out of pocket and probably more broke than he was when he bothered to set up the night himself.Oh, but of course, you talked about legitimate costs. But how can they get them back if they don't charge? Nobody is going to be able to retire on the modest profits one might make from running a poetry night.

It's also highly unlikely you'd make a profit, if you factored in the costs of your own labour at a reasonable amount per hour.

Going back to what Anthony said about venues (cos I've had enough of talking about money), I don't think there is such a thing as a perfect venue.

Until recently, I would have said the Tudor was pretty much there but latterly it seems to be falling victim to its own success. A plethora of poets with no self discipline - reading too much. That isn't helped by the 15 minute plus guest spot that has been introduced. I felt for the poets at the end of the last half, playing to a half empty room cos so many earlier poets had buggered off.

The perfect venue for me would be one that allowed everyone to perform but rationed them to so many minutes/poems each - building enough time in for socialising. I'd even pay for such a venue...