writing poetry - "the mechanics"
Hi Everyone,
We all have something in common that brings us to WOL - we write, and hopefully enjoy, poetry. There are a few aspects of the writing process which I feel would be worth exploring and sharing with each other for mutual benefit. It's probably different for all of us, and very specific for some, but what I'm interested in is how does a poem "happen" for you?
For instance:
What initially prompts you to write a poem? Inspiration I guess - but where does it come from and how do you recognise and record it? I have had many moments of inspiration that I have failed, (or not had the means to hand at the time) to record. My memory is usually pretty awful, and I kick myself repeatedly afterwards.So how do you do it?
What are those "sparks" for you? Is it visual, a phrase, a feeling, something sensory, an event, something oveheard? Do you sit and wait for inspiration and then write, or does the inspiration come first?
Once you've had that spark how do you expand on it? Do you start at the beginning of the poem and work sequentially through it, or work around an idea expanding and experimenting as you go? How long does it take? Do you write it "stream-of-consciousness" and then edit? Do you write down associated ideas and concepts, key phrases and the like? How much editing do you do before you have what you consider to be the finished product?
What environment is most conducive to your writing? Do you write longhand or straight to the keyboard? Do you prefer silence and solitude - or listen to music? Do you write at home or outdoors? Study/bedroom/living room? What time of day/night works best for you? Sober, stoned or sloshed? Do you have a favourite pen or pencil? Do you "google" anything as you write? What materials - if any, do you use for reference?
How do you ascertain when it's finished? Do you road test on friends/family? Do you make alterations after suggestions/crits? How/where do you store the finished poems? Hard copy, digital files, both? Do you return to "completed" works later and edit after some further insight? What are your poetry reading habits? Who do you read and why? What obstacles to your writing have you encountered? How did you overcome them? What makes you feel the "need" to write that we probably all share?
Lots of questions I know, but your responses might throw up some tips that others may find useful.
Regards,
A.E.
We all have something in common that brings us to WOL - we write, and hopefully enjoy, poetry. There are a few aspects of the writing process which I feel would be worth exploring and sharing with each other for mutual benefit. It's probably different for all of us, and very specific for some, but what I'm interested in is how does a poem "happen" for you?
For instance:
What initially prompts you to write a poem? Inspiration I guess - but where does it come from and how do you recognise and record it? I have had many moments of inspiration that I have failed, (or not had the means to hand at the time) to record. My memory is usually pretty awful, and I kick myself repeatedly afterwards.So how do you do it?
What are those "sparks" for you? Is it visual, a phrase, a feeling, something sensory, an event, something oveheard? Do you sit and wait for inspiration and then write, or does the inspiration come first?
Once you've had that spark how do you expand on it? Do you start at the beginning of the poem and work sequentially through it, or work around an idea expanding and experimenting as you go? How long does it take? Do you write it "stream-of-consciousness" and then edit? Do you write down associated ideas and concepts, key phrases and the like? How much editing do you do before you have what you consider to be the finished product?
What environment is most conducive to your writing? Do you write longhand or straight to the keyboard? Do you prefer silence and solitude - or listen to music? Do you write at home or outdoors? Study/bedroom/living room? What time of day/night works best for you? Sober, stoned or sloshed? Do you have a favourite pen or pencil? Do you "google" anything as you write? What materials - if any, do you use for reference?
How do you ascertain when it's finished? Do you road test on friends/family? Do you make alterations after suggestions/crits? How/where do you store the finished poems? Hard copy, digital files, both? Do you return to "completed" works later and edit after some further insight? What are your poetry reading habits? Who do you read and why? What obstacles to your writing have you encountered? How did you overcome them? What makes you feel the "need" to write that we probably all share?
Lots of questions I know, but your responses might throw up some tips that others may find useful.
Regards,
A.E.
Sun, 19 Jul 2009 04:40 pm
Sometimes hearing the lyrics of a song gets me into a certain sort of rhythm. After all a poem could be a song. Leonard Cohen is a master of poetry songs.
I know when it's finished and I never edit or change after posting/publishing. I always re-read several times and always on different days (it does matter as you humour changes daily).
I know when it's finished and I never edit or change after posting/publishing. I always re-read several times and always on different days (it does matter as you humour changes daily).
Sun, 19 Jul 2009 10:13 pm
So many questions Anthony - hope I can remember them all.
I am inspired by things that make me angry, sad or touch me in some way emotionally. I have never written about still life and have great respect for those who can manage to do it in a way that makes me want to read it - more often than not, I don't.
Poetry can come to me at any time of day - it is most annoying if it comes in the early hours cos then it deprives me of sleep. I normally jot my ideas or odd lines down on any scrap of paper/envelope I can find that is to hand - am not organised enought to have a notebook. I then transfer it to word document which I work on gradually as and when time permits. I sometimes start with the end or middle of a poem or just write odd stanzas and decide afterwards how I want to arrange them.
The only thing that gets in the way of the flow is my kids - very hard to write sometimes cos I have so many demands on time...
Once I've posted a poem, I lose interest in it and rarely go back to change it.
I am inspired by things that make me angry, sad or touch me in some way emotionally. I have never written about still life and have great respect for those who can manage to do it in a way that makes me want to read it - more often than not, I don't.
Poetry can come to me at any time of day - it is most annoying if it comes in the early hours cos then it deprives me of sleep. I normally jot my ideas or odd lines down on any scrap of paper/envelope I can find that is to hand - am not organised enought to have a notebook. I then transfer it to word document which I work on gradually as and when time permits. I sometimes start with the end or middle of a poem or just write odd stanzas and decide afterwards how I want to arrange them.
The only thing that gets in the way of the flow is my kids - very hard to write sometimes cos I have so many demands on time...
Once I've posted a poem, I lose interest in it and rarely go back to change it.
Sun, 19 Jul 2009 10:56 pm
My definition of panic: no pencil and paper.
I do scribble scraps of anything down as an interesting idea crosses my mind, however inconsequential it may seem. Sometimes it's a 'deep' thought; sometimes it's an alliterative silly. But, if it has a 'sound' to it, even a phrase must have potential.
If you will excuse an unbelievably corny expression, I think of my original thoughts as uninvited guests, to be welcomed and nurtured. Once started they take on a life of their own and get a bit bossy. I'm forever reeling them in tighter; and any initial concept may change in the process. For the better I always hope. I'm hardly ever really sure about the end result. To be honest, I don't always have an initial concept. My mind leaps around an idea. I have to force myself to discipline it, make it say something worth sharing. There is NOTHING like being finished, and saying: This far and no farther.
Up to that point I highly value input; after that point in my own mind, I don't want to hear it. .... Which isn't true. I'd still listen..... Maybe.
My old paper back Roget's Thesaurus is almost in ribbons from use, and three dictionaries are always at hand. I will edit constantly until I know I have captured exactly what I'm after.
I love writing poetry.
I do scribble scraps of anything down as an interesting idea crosses my mind, however inconsequential it may seem. Sometimes it's a 'deep' thought; sometimes it's an alliterative silly. But, if it has a 'sound' to it, even a phrase must have potential.
If you will excuse an unbelievably corny expression, I think of my original thoughts as uninvited guests, to be welcomed and nurtured. Once started they take on a life of their own and get a bit bossy. I'm forever reeling them in tighter; and any initial concept may change in the process. For the better I always hope. I'm hardly ever really sure about the end result. To be honest, I don't always have an initial concept. My mind leaps around an idea. I have to force myself to discipline it, make it say something worth sharing. There is NOTHING like being finished, and saying: This far and no farther.
Up to that point I highly value input; after that point in my own mind, I don't want to hear it. .... Which isn't true. I'd still listen..... Maybe.
My old paper back Roget's Thesaurus is almost in ribbons from use, and three dictionaries are always at hand. I will edit constantly until I know I have captured exactly what I'm after.
I love writing poetry.
Sun, 26 Jul 2009 01:55 pm
Hi Everyone,
And thanks for your responses.
I asked a lot of questions in starting this thread, but didn't offer any answers myself - which was discourteous of me. I will attempt to rectify that.
As for inspiration, I'm never really sure where that comes from. Sometimes it's something I feel strongly about, at other times it's simply a phrase or a "picture" of something that just pops into my head, and that I feel I want to expand. I have been prompted to write by many things - landscapes, the weather, the seasons, but perhaps most of all by people and relationships. I feel that for most people there is a creative urge. That urge may be expressed in many ways, usually within the broad category of "art." I guess also that art is a two-way street - the satisfaction we get after having completed something original, and the satisfaction of other peoples' approval of our creation (the need to "perform", whether that be on the page for others to read, or by reading our work in front of an audience.) There is also the escapism aspect of writing. It allows us the freedom to create anything we want - characters, situations, stories; therefore freeing us from the constraints of reality and the humdrum of the everyday. This is probably therapy for most of us, both the creativity and the escapism.
I admit to being quite disorganised; whether this is a facet of my personality which helps me write is another matter entirely. I have a butterfly mind which can find interest in most subjects, but leads to me finding scraps of paper scrawled with forgotten phrases in the pockets of jackets I haven't worn for months.
One thing I have found that is conducive to writing is walking; preferably alone and in a rural environment. Whether it's the natural rhythm of putting one foot in front of the other, or the time to think without interruption I couldn't say. Maybe a combination of the two. I usually take a pad and a pencil with me and just jot down whatever comes. Usually, after the initial idea, linked phrases or images come to me - in no particular order. Quite often the idea for the last lines of the poem come first, and I find myself working backwards to get to them.
These ideas may stay on paper for weeks, or until I have time to mull them over (perhaps even subconsciously.) If I am feeling really inspired and excited about something then I can get a first draft done in an afternoon. I have to say that that hasn't happened recently, except for the "throwaway" stuff I've been writing lately just so I'm not staring woefully at a blank page. For deeper and longer works it usually takes a few days to work things out mentally, transfer the ideas to my PC, put them in some kind of logical order and expand them to as near as I can get to a finished product.
After this I will test them. Firstly on myself, by reading them aloud several times. I find this essential for spotting the glitches and glaring omissions that aren't always apparent on the page. It also lets me hear how the words sound, rather than simply how they look, and how others will hear them. I'm never really happy with anything I've written, and always feel that there is much room for improvement. If I thought I'd ever written anything that was "perfect" then I would probably have stopped writing long ago.
Most of my ideas come in the daylight hours, whereas most of my "finishing" is done at night. I have never needed much sleep and I find that's when I'm most creative. I usually write in silence as I find I am distracted by other sounds, music etc, as they are a competing rhythm. Although listening to music during the times when I'm not consciously writing can sometimes jog something in the subconscious.
I have a study/office and admit to all kinds of reference materials - mostly the internet (google (images and websearch), wikipedia, rhymezone, dictionaries and anything that interests me, and sometimes Roget's when I'm stuck. I have various poetry books around the house, from the ancient to the modern - even in the loo; and of course there's the wealth of reading here on WOL.
Living where I do there is only one really accessible venue to read at once a month. I have found that it's not generally speaking a good idea to ask for appraisals of your work from those close to you - simply because usually they are too close to you and lack the objectivity to be totally honest. So my poems get their first airings at open mike nights. I do enjoy these and the buzz of performing, but find that the absence of feedback, apart from polite applause, a little disappointing. I do find the more in-depth feedback I get here on WOL invaluable - both the positive and especially the more openly critical.
The greatest obstacles to writing for me are a lack of self-confidence, and the feeling that I could probably be doing something more "useful" than scribbling away; the positive feedback I have received here from you kind folks on WOL really helps! At the moment I am not feeling particularly inspired to write anything meaningful; my creative urges tend to come in fits and starts. Often I won't write anything for weeks, followed by a period when I feel like writing all the time. It probably works like this for most people.
One thing that might be useful as a prompt for those of us struggling through the fallow periods (I hesitate to use the term writer's block as I'm not sure it exists as such) is a set exercise - either simply for fun or perhaps in a mildly competitive manner. I found these to be helpful in the past on another site. This involved very different themes; perhaps writing to a particular form, say a villanelle for instance, or on a theme (a suggestion, after recent postings might be what you might like to see as an inscription on your gravestone!) These can be quite fun and interesting to compare the very different styles of writing that appear on these pages.
Just a few thoughts, but I hope to keep writing, posting commenting and discussing for as long as you all will tolerate me!
Regards,
A.E.
And thanks for your responses.
I asked a lot of questions in starting this thread, but didn't offer any answers myself - which was discourteous of me. I will attempt to rectify that.
As for inspiration, I'm never really sure where that comes from. Sometimes it's something I feel strongly about, at other times it's simply a phrase or a "picture" of something that just pops into my head, and that I feel I want to expand. I have been prompted to write by many things - landscapes, the weather, the seasons, but perhaps most of all by people and relationships. I feel that for most people there is a creative urge. That urge may be expressed in many ways, usually within the broad category of "art." I guess also that art is a two-way street - the satisfaction we get after having completed something original, and the satisfaction of other peoples' approval of our creation (the need to "perform", whether that be on the page for others to read, or by reading our work in front of an audience.) There is also the escapism aspect of writing. It allows us the freedom to create anything we want - characters, situations, stories; therefore freeing us from the constraints of reality and the humdrum of the everyday. This is probably therapy for most of us, both the creativity and the escapism.
I admit to being quite disorganised; whether this is a facet of my personality which helps me write is another matter entirely. I have a butterfly mind which can find interest in most subjects, but leads to me finding scraps of paper scrawled with forgotten phrases in the pockets of jackets I haven't worn for months.
One thing I have found that is conducive to writing is walking; preferably alone and in a rural environment. Whether it's the natural rhythm of putting one foot in front of the other, or the time to think without interruption I couldn't say. Maybe a combination of the two. I usually take a pad and a pencil with me and just jot down whatever comes. Usually, after the initial idea, linked phrases or images come to me - in no particular order. Quite often the idea for the last lines of the poem come first, and I find myself working backwards to get to them.
These ideas may stay on paper for weeks, or until I have time to mull them over (perhaps even subconsciously.) If I am feeling really inspired and excited about something then I can get a first draft done in an afternoon. I have to say that that hasn't happened recently, except for the "throwaway" stuff I've been writing lately just so I'm not staring woefully at a blank page. For deeper and longer works it usually takes a few days to work things out mentally, transfer the ideas to my PC, put them in some kind of logical order and expand them to as near as I can get to a finished product.
After this I will test them. Firstly on myself, by reading them aloud several times. I find this essential for spotting the glitches and glaring omissions that aren't always apparent on the page. It also lets me hear how the words sound, rather than simply how they look, and how others will hear them. I'm never really happy with anything I've written, and always feel that there is much room for improvement. If I thought I'd ever written anything that was "perfect" then I would probably have stopped writing long ago.
Most of my ideas come in the daylight hours, whereas most of my "finishing" is done at night. I have never needed much sleep and I find that's when I'm most creative. I usually write in silence as I find I am distracted by other sounds, music etc, as they are a competing rhythm. Although listening to music during the times when I'm not consciously writing can sometimes jog something in the subconscious.
I have a study/office and admit to all kinds of reference materials - mostly the internet (google (images and websearch), wikipedia, rhymezone, dictionaries and anything that interests me, and sometimes Roget's when I'm stuck. I have various poetry books around the house, from the ancient to the modern - even in the loo; and of course there's the wealth of reading here on WOL.
Living where I do there is only one really accessible venue to read at once a month. I have found that it's not generally speaking a good idea to ask for appraisals of your work from those close to you - simply because usually they are too close to you and lack the objectivity to be totally honest. So my poems get their first airings at open mike nights. I do enjoy these and the buzz of performing, but find that the absence of feedback, apart from polite applause, a little disappointing. I do find the more in-depth feedback I get here on WOL invaluable - both the positive and especially the more openly critical.
The greatest obstacles to writing for me are a lack of self-confidence, and the feeling that I could probably be doing something more "useful" than scribbling away; the positive feedback I have received here from you kind folks on WOL really helps! At the moment I am not feeling particularly inspired to write anything meaningful; my creative urges tend to come in fits and starts. Often I won't write anything for weeks, followed by a period when I feel like writing all the time. It probably works like this for most people.
One thing that might be useful as a prompt for those of us struggling through the fallow periods (I hesitate to use the term writer's block as I'm not sure it exists as such) is a set exercise - either simply for fun or perhaps in a mildly competitive manner. I found these to be helpful in the past on another site. This involved very different themes; perhaps writing to a particular form, say a villanelle for instance, or on a theme (a suggestion, after recent postings might be what you might like to see as an inscription on your gravestone!) These can be quite fun and interesting to compare the very different styles of writing that appear on these pages.
Just a few thoughts, but I hope to keep writing, posting commenting and discussing for as long as you all will tolerate me!
Regards,
A.E.
Mon, 27 Jul 2009 02:17 pm
I carry a digital voice recorder (tiny) which I twitter into when I get the call.Later I type the collection into the computer to work when I have the time. Sometimes I wake in the night suddenly inspired, words swirling around my mind. Still in a semi conscious state I grab the recorder from under my pillow before the words can evaporate and recite as much as I can remember into the machine. Believe me in the morning I have no recall, but the fact that the recorder is somewhere on/in the bed do I know its been used.. I am amazed at what I has been recorded at times and for the life of me wonder where these words come from.
I also carry a notebook and pencil around with me too like most of us do. Its my life and I love it. :-)
I also carry a notebook and pencil around with me too like most of us do. Its my life and I love it. :-)
Mon, 27 Jul 2009 04:33 pm
I have had a couple of glasses of wine so probably shouldn't be discussing anything right now but sod it. Was fascinated to hear how you both write Val/Anthony. Anthony you sound a bit like me in that you are totally disorganised and write things on scraps - I don't have the leisure of being able to go for solitary strolls so will sometime think of things in the shower (my definite me time). Val - I am fascinated that you keep a dictophone under your pillow - I've never thought of doing that....Tee hee, I lead a sheltered life - or maybe much too exposed!!! I can see the benefits however - perhaps I should shell out the £30 or whatever - I end up rummaging round in the early hours looking for envelopes and my handwriting is so bad, often I can't read what I've written later....I should have been a doctor, or a chemist - definitely not a poet. I think that maybe we are all similar - we don't start with the intro and move on in a logical manner - odd phrases pop into our heads and just get blended as the poem develops, Such a shame more people haven't contributed to this thread - I find it quite interesting...
Think I'm going for third everyone - cheers, bottoms up, lasdrovia!
Think I'm going for third everyone - cheers, bottoms up, lasdrovia!
Mon, 27 Jul 2009 06:32 pm
Sorry I missed you out Cynthia - we are similar in that once a poem is finished we lose interest... I liken it to being an imperfect baby maybe - things don't always have to be perfect for me - I love them any way. And yes - there is nothing quite like finishing a poem and deciding that you are doing no more on it - when you press that post button, a huge weight lifts off you and you can just move on...
Mon, 27 Jul 2009 06:37 pm
Shit - I've forgotten Graham as well - I must be pissed - what gets me into a rythm? - can't remember for the life of me...but I think you are with me and Cynthia in lots of respects.
Mon, 27 Jul 2009 06:40 pm
I pretty much agree with what has already been posted. I hear a phrase and think "there`s a poem in that," and jot it down on anything to hand, and write around it. If I leave it, and think its too clever a thought to forget, Im invariably wrong, and it hangs around in the back of my mind like a forgotten dream, just under the surface but not enough to remember.... really annoying! So Ive learned to strike whilst the iron`s hot and scribble something down no matter where I am.
I like to use pen and paper to do my rough work on, and replace words and cross out until the paper is a mass of corrections only decipherable by me. I know my sister does all her editing on her pc, but not for me.
The muse can hit me anywhere..... in fact Ive already got my Christmas poem ready and raring to go. I was on a car park waiting for my daughter to come back from somewhere, and it just hit me I needed to write this, so I did. If I`d waited for a more appropriate time it would have been long gone!
My problem is Im a "jack of all trades," so my time gets shared between music dance and poetry. It depends upon which one is most in demand in my life at the time, so I can go long periods of time without actually writing whilst I concentrate on another of my hobbies.I have written more since joining this web site than I have for years, so thats got to be good!
Cate xx
I like to use pen and paper to do my rough work on, and replace words and cross out until the paper is a mass of corrections only decipherable by me. I know my sister does all her editing on her pc, but not for me.
The muse can hit me anywhere..... in fact Ive already got my Christmas poem ready and raring to go. I was on a car park waiting for my daughter to come back from somewhere, and it just hit me I needed to write this, so I did. If I`d waited for a more appropriate time it would have been long gone!
My problem is Im a "jack of all trades," so my time gets shared between music dance and poetry. It depends upon which one is most in demand in my life at the time, so I can go long periods of time without actually writing whilst I concentrate on another of my hobbies.I have written more since joining this web site than I have for years, so thats got to be good!
Cate xx
Mon, 27 Jul 2009 07:32 pm
My inspiration comes from 'oh shit, it's pottery night at the Tudor next week'.
And then I write a pome.
Usually this comes from the poster in the pub, but then I ask people for ideas.
I realise that this may seem devoid of the emotion that poets SHOULD put into their work, but about an hour ago I asked a barmaid for suggestions for Mondays slam. (The goth bird from the bed scene).
She said I should write one from the perspective of being a mobile phone. My immediate analogy was that I also have been discarded for a newer model, cos I ain't sparkly enough, and can't do new 'tricks'.
So I may just give it a go when I stop drunkenly woffling.
That's my inspiration.
Also Anthony, what prevents my writing is being unable to find a bloody pen in my bloody house.
And then I write a pome.
Usually this comes from the poster in the pub, but then I ask people for ideas.
I realise that this may seem devoid of the emotion that poets SHOULD put into their work, but about an hour ago I asked a barmaid for suggestions for Mondays slam. (The goth bird from the bed scene).
She said I should write one from the perspective of being a mobile phone. My immediate analogy was that I also have been discarded for a newer model, cos I ain't sparkly enough, and can't do new 'tricks'.
So I may just give it a go when I stop drunkenly woffling.
That's my inspiration.
Also Anthony, what prevents my writing is being unable to find a bloody pen in my bloody house.
Mon, 27 Jul 2009 09:58 pm
Please ignore my last bollocks. I forgot one of WOL's maxims.
Beware the post pub posting!
Beware the post pub posting!
Tue, 28 Jul 2009 04:03 pm