OK, there hasn't been a decent discussion on this forum for months - so it's time to tackle a REAL issue before the whole of WOL gets so BORING and provincial "university" establishment that it fades away and dies a death of prolonged pretension...

As a true feminist and a Men's Liberation supporter (the two causes are, of course, mutually supportive - to GENUINE supporters of liberation, at least), I object most strongly to WOMEN-ONLY poetry competitions.

Why? Well, who would be brave enough (in the current atmosphere of State and Establishment-supported and funded Liberal Fascism), to ask why there are no MEN-ONLY poetry competitiions? Me, actually - but only while there are women-only competitions.

Because I'm interested in justice, truth, art and beauty! I do not, as a genuine feminist, make these points lightly. I feel a huge, discriminatory injustice is being done - to men and to women.

And I also think that too many people in the arts and 'creative writing' 'industries' are closing their eyes to this problem (possibly through self interest) - which isn't just unjust, but actually damaging to artistic expression. It's an act of fascism - i.e. denying people their freedom.

I can remember seeing a woman only venue on here not long back too. Can't imagine for the life of me who would want to go to such a closed shop. Can't imagine why anyone would want to run a single sex poetry competition either. How boring.
I'm not going to jump up and down and shake my fist about it though. Like I probably wouldn't if a group of blokes got together and did the same. I'd just think they were sad.

When the Forward Prize for (supposedly) Best Poetry Book of the year is entirely free of women poets this year, and only three women poets have ever won it; and when most anthologies of poetry have a 2/3 male to 1/3 female ratio, I'm not entirely surprised that someone might want to redress the balance a little.

But I can see the objection to women only competitions, though the only one I know of is the Mslexia one.

Fair point, Steve, there's an imbalance. But doesn't liberation mean being relaxed about what everyone is up to so long as no-one is being harmed?

Why not run a men-only competition yourself? See what happens.

I must agree that it seems somehow anachronistic to have "women only" competitions. I am a woman. I've been an unmarried mother, a wife, a married mother, earnt my own living (for the kids too) and now I'm a spinster I guess. Can't see how that's stopped me writing poetry.

I do not find a 'women only' contest offensive. In my experience, there is an inexplicable, but still debilitating, shyness among women to be really honest about their subject matter and their vocabulary. Such contests suggest that complete freedom of expression is welcome. Conversely, some women are rank conformists and the 'head honcho' of such a contest may also be true blue to 'male-ish' tradition, and not ready for the stark realism of 'femaleness'. But it seems as though it could encourage a wider field of feminine honesty. IMO, women are incredibly dishonest to themselves and to Men.I think feminine self-expression, in progress from A to Z hovers about an M.

That's an interesting point Cynthia. Do you think that WOL ladies conform to this criteria (dishonest to themselves and to men). I'm sure not!!

Mind you, all these football poems really hack me OFF!!!!!!! (Sorry guys!)

Hmmmm... There is nothing complicated about this. People write poems as individuals - not as writers defined by their gender.

Why exclude so many poets from competitions by making the contests women only? That is WRONG on so many levels - not least because it discriminates against men who are full of support and encouragement for women.

Come to think ... is such blatant gender discrimination even legal?

PS The lack of responses to this injustice by those involved in the spurious taxpayer-funded "creative writing" industries within inferior provincial "universities" (i.e. crap former polytechnics and glorified technical colleges), speaks volumes to me ... about guilty consciences among politically correct liberal charlatans!

And about institutionalised mediocrity within the withered grove of contemporary academe.

Steve
Wot you said!

I think that to command an equal footing with men, women need to place themselves on the same podium. I can't imagine men rushing out to find out who won a woman only competition - for that matter, neither would I...

Surely you can only say you've achieved equality, if you do so on an all inclusive playing field?

I take the point that Steven Whaling is making though. Are women faring so badly in the poetry stakes because they submit less or does it have something to do with the balance of sexes on the judging/editorial side? Whatever the answer to that, I don't think it lies with same sex competitions/books/venues. In fact, for me I think such things work negatively.

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying either Cynthia. Would you be talking about our sexuality? I suppose there is a great deal of social conditioning that goes on with women, which makes it hard to write about some issues.

ps What Steve Regan said about provincial universities is totally un-pc and off topic - but funny...

There are a lot of tin pot courses that lead to no fathomable job whatsover. How they will all fare when the fees treble I've no idea - but what a shame that all courses and all universities are going to be clobbered with the same shitty stick.

On WOL it seems to me that both men and women (OK! women and men!) write about the same issues, but sometimes with a different "take" on it (that is usually when sex is the subject p'raps!) Maybe women don't write about war/politics/soldiers and sport so much? (Dare I say?:)

<quote>People write poems as individuals - not as writers defined by their gender. </quote>

I'm sorry - but no. Poets no less than other people are members of the society they live in, that has shaped their thought patterns, that has brought them up. 'No (wo)man is an island' to quote John Donne. We are as affected by the conditioning of the late-capitalist hegemony of our society as anyone else; and while we can find ways of escaping from that conditioning, we are not immune from it.

Institutionalised sexism is part of out society; deeply ingrained in a lot of women is the idea that they shouldn't be putting themselves forward, especially not against men. A competition devoted to women at least gives women the chance to feel that there is a space for them.

And no, Dave, being liberated doesn't mean being relaxed. It can just as easily mean thinking about what you're doing rather than just doing it because it's supposedly 'natural.'

Just to add to the previous: while I think about it. Some women poets such as Elizabeth Bishop never liked 'women only' anthologies. Other people find a woman only space may be a good space to build confidence or feel safe.

Come on. I mean... COME ON! To have gender-specific competitions for writers is discriminatory and patronising.

And I say that as big admirer of women writers. Carol Shields and Hilary Mantel are among my favourite literary novelists; Caryl Churchill is a brilliant playwright, Carol Ann Duffy an excellent poet (as well as a friendly, non-snooty woman.)

Creative people should not be offered ghettos where they can develop their talents … usually under the supervision of men-hating bluestockings.

To be honest it doesn't really bother me. There are enough places that take my white, eurocentric, phallocentric poetry for me not to care if the little ladies want to sit in a nice corner and do their own stuff once in a while.

I'm going to let the ladies go into the drawing-room now, while the chaps sit around talking about how unfair life is to us as we smoke our cigars and drink copious amounts of tawny port and do important stuff....

So - I'm going to keep my reply here nice and confrontational. Since you're asking for a real discussion. And you strike me as one of those mad "COMBAT LIBERALISM" types.

Here goes.

Ah, the grand old "I'm a feminist, but what is it with all these women only events" line. I have never heard that one a million times before.

Get over it. It doesn't make a difference to you & it does make a difference to those women who feel they're pushed away from more men-heavy events.

If you're so eager to combat discrimination, maybe best to choose something that is actually discriminatory instead of something that has a minor negative effect on privileged old you.

Your "REAL" discussion points come over as mansplaining & rock hard feminist or no, your appeals for more "equality" just sound like the whines of a petulant child. "It's not equality if I can't do exactly what I want" is the least nuanced and most boringly prevalent argument about equality ever to hit any discussion board / pub conversation anywhere.

mansplaining:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Mansplain

This discussion has been dead for months Sean.

yep, dead as a do-door nail. perhaps we should have women-only discussions on this site? And women-and-men-only ones too?

You're completely missing out transgendered people too ;p

and what about me Laura?

Well it may be dead but it has resurrected, perhaps appropriate following Hallowe'en.
I disagree with the idea that women only events, whether poetry or any other activity, are all about women being intimidated by men.
This is one reason, perhaps, but it may not occur to those who are complaining that actually women only events lead to a different range of discussion and topic than mixed events, and this is interesting and quite enlightening.
Sexuality is one topic, but there are many others on which women find they have a common perspective.
It is also true that women may withhold discussion of aspects of their lives that they think men may not want to hear about but which it is healthy to be open about in the right company.
Men should not feel resentful if some women want to share their writings with other women, without male comments and reactions. Women are the public too, and a large audience of all or mostly women is a public audience, and challenging too.

The subject here was poetry competitions- not discussions or activities (at least that was the original point).

Why is gender an issue in anonymous competition?

If even a name was an issue, that would easily be solvable via a nom de plume.

I see little reason why MOST competitions that are written
(that can afford anonimity) should be about anything other than talent (what you write). If very good reasons can be put forward for catergorisation in individual cases-then of course there is no reason to be dogmatic, but I think it should be a logic that is considered on a case by case basis. The logic that it is simply good to categorise people into nice compartments is imo a bad one.

P.S

If we were dealing with discussions and activities, could we not argue the exact same logic and have male only areas and then go further down that line and have all kinds of categorisations?

I thought one of the truly great things about poetry was;

A) That via the written word it can..

Connect on a personal/intimate level with people of entirely differing backgrounds, ages, genders, politics...epochs even.

B) That via the spoken word it can...

Show just how irrelevant the categorisations of people are.

I am now friends with people of all ages, men and women, with entirely differing politics, socio economic backgrounds, ideas about life etc.

All that has happened for me thx to poetry bringing people together and leaving the labels and categorries behind.

Each to their own.

Steve - what are you?

pretty neutral

An in-betweeny? ;p

Well I have a poem about Andrea Dworkin called Porn Queen. It's not complimentary. Maybe I should put it on here?