I've just been reading the Fiona Sampson feature on the Home Page and the associated comments by various WOLers made there.
It's made me think that if there really isn't the quality of teacher available to read classic poetry (or at least a decent sample of it) to young people then all that is left is an X Factor approach to it.
Everyone seems to want to be a performer (not just poetry) these days. But where will it leave the written word?
So is performance poetry the X Factor of verse?

I think you're probably right, Graham. If any of us who perform argues that they don't do it for recognition why then don't they recite in (in the words of MC Newberry) "in a cupboard"? Recognition is not available to us through the printed page for financial reasons so we "spit our shit" at whoever we can, whether orally or virtually.

I think much depends on how you define 'recognition' from performing.

It depends on how you choose to look at it. Without performance poetry the next generation is relying on just page poetry and the hope that they will get the right teachers at school, or will be miraculously introduced to it via some other medium.

With a healthy performance scene, there is the chance that people will come to a venue, hear it, like it and start to read and write themselves. It does happen. Poetry can leap off the page and come alive. Of course, there is a lot of rubbish out there, but there are some great poets too.

The X factor has been bad in that it seems to have marked a decline in proper musical talent - artists getting famous on the back of cover versions - the importance of image and looks over ability.

I think the decline in written poetry may well happen, with or without an increase in performance poetry. All performance poetry can do is to help.

Firstly, all poetry is "written poetry" including performance poetry (unless you compose in your head and never write it down.)

Secondly, I don't see a decline in it. Salt recently published a book of poets under 25 that had 50 young people in it! Many, of course, were studying Creative Writing degrees; but I certainly see no decline in people writing it. Nor in the creation of magazines, reading series and sheer enthusiasm for it.

Of course, maybe they're just reading to one another; maybe we're all doing that, even the performers (I don't often see a great audience of non-poets at most events when I do venture out...)

Poetry is probably more like jazz than pop music - in terms of its market that is, and probably in the range of its sounds. There's stuff that slides off into easy listening and stuff that sounds like a lots of cats fighting in a bag (I rather like some of the latter) and everything in between. There's something for Sinatra fans, punks, fans of Stockhausen (there are some out there) and everyone; but you have to be prepared to explore.

Maybe the current climate makes it difficult for people to contemplate exploring what they don't know or aren't sure of. But a spirit of discovery is needed by readers, listeners and writers/performers if the artform is to mean anything, surely?

Should anyone be advised to perform "in a cupboard" if they don't seek recognition?
When I 'perform' I haven't a single thought of seeking recognition. For me, it's purely a means of mixing with like-minded folk, and contributing to whatever comes along at a Gig.
Should I keep myself locked away?
Discuss - nothing too vulgar please

Heh heh - it depends on what you mean by 'performing in a cupboard' ;)

I take your point though Steve - not all people who go to venues, get the same adrenaline rush or buzz out of performing. Very many seem to enjoy being on a stage though - cos most seek to read more than one and some would go on forever if they could...

The poetry scene is a nice one cos it's quirky - all ages, all backgrounds, all walks of life. I don't think pressure is ever put on people to perform. A good number of people turn up to Wigan regularly, without any intention of performing and they add nicely to the atmosphere of the venue because they are a recognised part of it. Performance is therefore a choice and there must be a bit of enjoyment somewhere, else people wouldn't make it.

Steven - perhaps we are over stating the case of a decline in poetry. Self publication would account for a lot of poetry going to print - plus the joint ventures that must be funded to a large part by the purchases for friends and family. Are people buying more poetry from professional poets than they did in the past? That would be an interesting stastic to know.

I think poetry has opened up to the masses in that perhaps it isn't seen as exclusive any more or needing to be of a certain structure. Anybody can now have a go and the internet makes it easier to access,read, and promote yourself.

Whether we will get the same volume of quality poetry in future generations remains to be seen.

Yes - all poetry is originally written down - some then makes good performance poetry also - some doesn't. Yes that performance poetry is a mixed bag...

I think you're bang on Isobel.
I only made the point about Mr Newberry's advice (as in John's post above) about performing in a cupboard, because I saw it as a very very negative thing to say.
From many of the gigs I've been to, some of the best 'performers' have come from a mental health background, and where would be without them if they had followed the advice of 'if you're not looking for recognition, perform in a cupboard'. Not the greatest advice to anyone lacking in confidence.
Some year or 3 ago, similar advice was given about not posting blogs unless you were open to criticism, and I found that equally negative. Did that dissuade people from posting? It certainly put me off for a while (who said that was a good thing??)

Of course I'm only a constituency of one but I disagree.

With who, about what?

Everything probably, knowing him! ;)

As to "why perform"? I think I first did it to prove something to myself, having always felt quite a shy quiet little thing! Now I've done it a bit, it's ever so slightly lost its thrill. Bother!

If people really are put off from posting poems because they aren't open to criticism maybe they should try thinking of it as advice instead.Like any advice, you don't have to take it and after a while of ignoring it you'll find it goes away.

Borrowing from an earlier thread on stuff being "accessible" I shall offer no more comment than that I disagree.

I seek the right of reply to Steve Mellor's view of my "cupboard" comment (elsewhere). It is my position that poetry is a means of reaching out and touching others and if it is not seen as such by its practitioners THEN it might as well be whispered into a cupboard. As Glenda Slag might say in a certain publication: Geddit?!

The benefit of poetry to those with
mental health issues is a happy by-product of the art form but is not the aim, intention or purpose of poetry in its widest application. Performing in public doesn't have to
be about "recognition" but the aim
surely has to be to "reach out" -
just as, in a reverse sense, poetry "reached in" to touch those mentioned above.

The comment I made about performing in a cupboard, was related to John's post:-
"If any of us who perform argues that they don't do it for recognition why then don't they recite in (in the words of MC Newberry) "in a cupboard"?
I can just about accept that many people perform to reach out, but there are many who do it for their own individual reasons.
Equally I accept the 'happy by-product' argument, but if one took John's argument at face value, I am convinced that there would be some of our persuasion who may never have come out of the cupboard.

certainly for me with poetry.. i'm still enjoying it as much as i have always done, although certainly i have changed over the years as my writing has.. the manchester scene as noted here has changed over the past few years and without agreeing / disagreeing with some of the rows on facebook - i can't see any decline in it atall from it.. wasn't aware of the book Steve mentioned, but it's defo still there from the recent headline slot at Write Out Loud's Bolton night when I had the pleasane of introducing Adam Wolley, a 16 / 17 year who is packed full of talent..

I think sales of poetry books are up, a bit; partly because of the Internet. Pamphlets are also being produced again (Salt and Faber both produce them; and there's lots of others out there all over the country.)

As for why people read/perform: well, I don't think it's necessarily for 'recognition'; but there is a sense of needing some kind of affirmation from one's peers. Maybe you don't want to be the latest Famous Seamus, but there is a sense of needing to be part of a community of writers. Something like WOL, despite or maybe because of its diversity, provides a sense of community for writers. 'Recognition' implies a hierarchy of some kind ('I've been published in Poetry Review/ So my poetry's better than you') whereas I think many people just want to share what they've done with like-minded people. And that's fine.

We perform for the kick (usually preceeded by the panic)

We blog because we like people to actually remember the bloody stuff.

The point is to have it heard and
(much more important) read.

Poetry audiences and readers are usually very patient people, and one should always remember that folk don`t usually give you your full credit until you die (or - as one poet put it `left the room`)

Keep performing and keep blogging.

If "recognition" goes hand in hand with reaching out and being read/heard, then it is a happy
situation indeed.

Going back to Graham's original question, and linking to the homepage Fiona Sampson feature, maybe we are expecting a little too much from the state? Whether we like it - or not, poetry is a minority interest. Not only that, it's minority interest amongst many other minority interests. It would probably be impossible to give poetry, along with all the other "subjects" much time in schools, given the strictures of the national curriculum.

I think it's wrong to have a go at teachers for the shortage of poetry in schools. For one, they may not have any particular affinity or skill for poetry, and secondly, what to introduce children to? If WOL contributors are anything to go by the argument would still be running after they'd graduated.

If we are concerned about getting poetry into schools then it's up to us, as poets, to do smething about it. My comment on the aforementioned thread wasn't entirely flippant - what are The Poetry Society doing about this? Does it care about introducing poetry to young people and getting resources into schools - or is it simply for the mutual benefit of already established poets? (Or is voicing that out loud akin to heresy?)

As for the X-Factor analogy, frankly I'm all for anything which is likely to build a child's self-confidence and self-esteem. If a child is able to write and recite his/her own poetry then I don't see any kind of downside to that?

The future of poetry doesn't belong to someone else. It isn't someone else's responsibility. The alarm clock is ringing and there's the aroma of freshly brewed coffee in the air. Yes, that's right, it's OUR responsibility.

Not having children of my own I'm hesitant to offer any prescriptive solutions - but, after school poetry clubs for kids, poets going into schools as part of English classes, out of school clubs/societies for kids? It's all possible, but can we, as poets, afford simply to stand back and say that it's someone else's responsibility?

The "what is poetry" question will, I'm reasonably confident, never be definitively answered. As to the "who is poetry" question, well, I guess that's probably us.

As to Steve'e point re not wanting critique on poems; I don't see a problem with that. I don't think it would be too difficult to introduce a system of categorisation to the WOL blogs, say entries marked with OC, for open critique - all comments welcome, NC, no critique, general chit-chat only, etc. Just a suggestion. Although I'm a little at a loss as to why anyone would want to put their stuff out there and remain oblivious as to what readers think of it. That seems to be closer to a "mirror, mirror on the wall" analogy than reading in the cupboard.

Refreshing honesty, Harry. Deep respect m'man.

Picking up on Anthony’s thread, there are several elements that I, in turn, wanted to comment on, or put out for discussion

I ‘volunteer’, with Years 5 and 6, at a local Junior & Infant School, doing 3 half-days a week, so I have just a little (and I mean a little) experience about what happens in the way that children are exposed to poetry. From what I see, the teaching staff are so constricted by the national curriculum that there is only a limited exposure to poetry, and much of that is given over to the comprehension of the work, rather than in the appreciation of the specific poem.

I have the idea that the teachers may like to go off-curriculum, but SATS are always on the horizon, and that seems to control every activity, no matter who might like to think otherwise.

‘My’ school is wonderful. It appears to have limited funds, even for those things which are a must, and finds it difficult to attract funds from parents for extra-curricula activities. Poetry would, I am sure, if voted on, not even register on the clapometer. So, for the last 2 years, I have put together a smallish booklet of my poems (those which couldn’t be taken anywhere close to the wrong way, and hopefully won’t warp the child’s brain), and given the 10 and 11 year old’s (Years 5 & 6) a copy each, for them to take home. The response is, to a simple soul like me, a little overwhelming. I have a few children who approach me and recite the odd, simple, poem to me (something I can’t do, even though I wrote them), and there are several who tell me that they read my poems at home.
I have contact with one child who particularly enjoys poetry, but his parents have told him that he’ll never get anywhere with poetry!

It appears to be difficult to get those in authority (not teachers or Heads) to appreciate that exposure to poetry can allow a child’s mind freedom to think in the abstract, thereby assisting in the more conventional aspects of literacy within the school

So, what is the Poetry Society, or anyone else for that matter, going to do about making poetry available to children and schools.

Any ideas?

It's amazing that such a situation can exist. It is unchallenged that kiddies enjoy the basic rhymes -"Humpty Dumpty" etc., and this enjoyment can be nurtured to progress to more mature stuff commensurate with age. There can only be a lack of incentive or worse that prevents this being pursued by the teaching profession. As for the parents who were of the opinion their child would get nowhere with poetry - therein lies the old enemy: ignorance breeding ignorance. Dickens would have had something to say about that - and DID, as I recall - in the forms of the sinister little children beneath the cloak of "Christmas Present". Well done indeed, SM, for your efforts.Might schools in general respond to local approaches from easily "checkable" sources who offer cost-free talks to appropriate children as an addition to the curriculum? And perhaps libraries can be persuaded to promote relevant-to-age poetry in their children's sections?

Excellent avenue of the thread, AE, SM and MCN (Surely I'm not the first person to think "Motorcycle News"?)
I see so much posted on this site of a political nature challenging iniquity, injustice, inequality etc. If we care about this issue, albeit not the most pressing of issues confronting us at the moment, what say we do something about it, as SM does, and make a "pledge" to offer voluntary services in our local school to promote poetry?
Someone want to start a new blog/campaign?

There is a real problem in this thread and elsewhere when it comes to discussions on this subject. The problem is people are often talking at crossed purposes due to a lack of naming conventions.

Quote Graham
Everyone seems to want to be a performer (not just poetry) these days. But where will it leave the written word?
Unquote


Quote Isobel
Without performance poetry the next generation is relying on just page poetry and the hope that they will get the right teachers at school, or will be miraculously introduced to it via some other medium
Unquote

Quote Steven Waling
Firstly, all poetry is "written poetry" including performance poetry (unless you compose in your head and never write it down.)
Unquote

Quote Frances Spurrier
Many readers and users of the Write out Loud website are interested in performance poetry. Although not everyone sees a distinction between performance poetry and written poetry, do you agree that there is such a distinction, given the oral traditions of poetry and storytelling?
Unquote

Quote Finona Sampson
Given those oral traditions, no. All poetry is performance poetry.
Unquote


To clarify;

We have ’performing your poetry’- a jazzed up version of reading your poems. Often no difference at all from reading poems; albeit in front of an audience. And we have performance poetry-performed.
Both at the same open mic venues!

Some people writing exclusively for the page and performing/reading, while others perform their ‘performance poetry’ written exclusively or mainly for performance.

It is quite incorrect to say that the writing of ‘performance poetry’ is the same as writing page poetry. Just because they are both written on the page. A monologue is written on a page- and that isn’t the same as page poetry and the same can be said for performance poetry.

What distinguishes ‘performance poetry’ writing from page poetry writing is the style it uses/evokes.

•
It tends to be less between the lines and more understandable in the oral format that does not allow for re-reading.

•
It is often less formalised in structure, meter is rarely used- rhythm often used.

•
Rhyme, internal rhyme, alliteration, repetition and consonance are used to a much greater extent than as seen in modern page poetry.

•
It often uses linguistic skills and tricks that are less often used or not available to page poetry.

•
Assonance is used much less as is slant rhyme…as for eye rhyme? Mmmm.

------

So when Graham talks about a performance, distinguishing as he does between page poetry, he is mistaking 'performance' wholesale for performance poetry. Isobel talks about performace poetry; in so doing I think she means taking performance poetry to mean all/most poetry performed.

People are talking at crossed purposes.

Likewise Fiona Sampson thinks that all poetry performed is therefore performance poetry.

We need clear definitions to avoid all the confusion and to stop talking at crossed purpose.

Why don't we refer to poetry written for or mainly for performace as performance poetry. And refer to page poetry performed as;

‘poetry performance’.

Make that a moniker for the performance of page poems.

I write primarily for the page and then try to breathe life into those poems, by reading them with the same belief and conviction that brought me to write them. This appears as though I am performing them. To me I am just reading them.

I have at other times written deliberately for an oral setting. There are separate skill sets involved!

That said; it is often possible to make SOME page poems come to life on stage and be every bit as good as ones written purely for an oral performance- sometimes better. This itself is another skill.

The operative word above in the last paragraph was SOME. There will also always be SOME page poems that either do not work or have a limited success in an oral setting.

This is often due to the requirement to
re-read and re-tread the language to tease out meaning. This is something that of course cannot happen in an oral setting.

Page and performance poems are written from the outset from totaly differing positions/orientations.
They are not or at least rarely the same beast!

---------

A note to the original author of the thread.

It would be a huge mistake to think that an open mic poetry night was about performance poetry or only performance poetry- It is not!

Open mic nights features poetry performance and performance poetry.

I would estimate about a 50/50 split between poetry written for the page- then performed (poetry performance) and poetry written for the oral setting- performance poetry at venues/open mic nights.

At some venues, some of the poetry is every bit as good as anything you will find in Envoi or Poetry Review. In fact some of it can be found in such magazines.

You would need to attend a few to see for yourself. It is worth doing and certainly there is nothing to lose.

Naming convention game of menkal.


Mr Poet wrote his poem for the page.
Oh said 'the man', I like your page poem- You're a veritable T.S Eliot!

Mr Poet then performed 'said' poem.

In performing the SAME poem this made the poem 'performance poetry'. Even Fiona Sampson would agree (given all poetry is performance poetry).

Oh said 'the man' hearing on the TV that Mr Poet had written a performance poem.

I don't like performance poetry, Mr Poet is a veritable John Cooper Clarke!

Having read and listened to the article/clip of Allison McVety reading her winning poem on the home page of WOL, it has got me thinking that "performing" one's work seems to be obligatory. Did she have to read it? or was it optional?

We recognise our own humanity by the sounds we make in our mouth and in the air.

We search for ourselves in the sounds and words we hear.

We speak and write so we are not alone. Don't we?

???

Read John Berger Graham!

It didn't answer my question. I certainly don't want to discover my humanity by speaking out loud. I merely make the point that if Ms McVety wrote a wonderful poem that won a prestigious competition, did she have any say in whether she was required to read it. Why does poetry need to be performed for christ sake?

Thousands of years ago people sat around fires passing food and words to each other. Why does poetry need to be performed? It's an interesting question.

Isn't some poetry for the air, the space around one rather than the page? It would be odd if a poet won a competition yet no one heard the poem.

Poetry probably began as an oral art form. An appetite for words. The telling of tales. We possess a hunger for language. Don't we? It's what makes us human. We recognise our separateness, our belonging by the articulation of imagination through sound.

Isn't that why we place one word next to another.Poets should have the freedom either to perform their work or not. The choice should be theirs alone.

The answer Graham is- no.

It was a written competition.

When we read our gaze is short. When we read out loud our gaze is extended. We hear our voice coming back to us, perhaps we are changed.

If a poet has never read their work in public before, in the few moments it takes to walk to the mic their whole attitude to their work can change.

When a poet reads their work it can make the listener great. When one reads the work of Tvetaeva it makes the reader great.

When we read out loud we become our own listener.

A more interesting subject for discussion would be... Why do so many English poets - as opposed to poets who write in English - have nothing to say?

Alan you can start any discussion you wish. A word of advice though; ignoring people's questions and stating in a thread that the said thread is not as interesting as something else is not likely to endear you to people. Speaking in a pseudo mystical voice also probably doesn't help.

The force of the English language use!

Yoda might say...but it causes a disconnect haha.

I confess to never attending a public event in which poetry is read aloud but I have recordings by some superb readers - and that perhaps is the difference. To read poetry well is a gift - a hard to define mixture of affinity, understanding and a mastery <all right ladies - misstery :-)> of the material...enhanced by a voice that does justice to what is being said. Just as some composers are not the best interpreters of their own music, so some poets may not be best suited to reading their own words. Mind you, I've cringed when I have mistakenly let someone else read my stuff aloud (at leaving parties etc.,) - and wished I'd done it myself...for better or worse!! To those tempted to go public...go for it. You can only learn - and even learn to enjoy the experience and become really proficient.

Thanks Chris.

(I give up)

By the way, how come I can't get to read your profile Alan? Am I not clicking the right buttons or are you a private profile? (if such a thing exists).

Chris

Read Ernst Fischer's book...
The Necessity Of Art.Peregrine. 1959.
ISBN 0-14-055151-4

One expects the level of discussion to be higher. As Lindsay Anderson used to say... 'Be better tomorrow.'