It's good to say thank you. On WOL it's always difficult to know whether to thank a commenter. If everyone always did so it would clutter up the site and burden the server. If no one ever did, it would be a pity, and some of what gets added to a simple thank you is interesting in its own right. What to do?

Would it be possible for a thank you to be sent to someone who had commented without it being a full-blown comment - unless, of course, that was wanted? A little icon to click that sends a quick grateful nudge to the commenter. The recent software additions are great and must have been hard work, so I'm reluctant to suggest yet another. But something on those lines would be useful

PS Thank you to everyone who has ever commented on one of mine. Much appreciated even if I didn't say so at the time

I'm not sure I like that idea Dave - a little icon that you tick for thank you just doesn't do it for me. It is nicer to have something personal - or if you know someone well enough to dispense with that - a general thank you on the poem itself suits the purpose. A tick box would just make it too automatic, too false - a bit like saying 'have a nice day' on a check out.

I like the sentiments behind the discussion thread though.

I completely agree with what Isobel is saying...
Ticking a 'Thank You' box is too impersonal... Once you have a good rapport with someone - you shouldn't feel the need to personally thank them each time, especially if they are a fan of your work and comment often because they already know how you feel...

I guess it is nice to be thanked but I wouldn't expect it. In fact, when you get an email saying "so-an-so has left a comment" you kinda hope they've said something about your latest poem rather than "Thank you" I suppose! (Tis human nature!) But as I say, it is always appreciated. The nicest thing is just to sometimes get a comment on your poem from someone that you've thanked, not as payback but just to let you know that they know that you exist! It's people who never comment on anyone else's poem, or say thanks, that get up my vulpine little nose! And after a while I have felt less like commenting on their poems.

I, too, prefer a personal thank-you (though don't expect it) to a tick-box.
And I agree with your remark, Ann, that a comment on your own work is even better - someone paying you the compliment of reading it and saying something (hopefully positive).

When it comes to leaving comments though - I'm not brilliant, I struggle to know what to say very often. There are some people on here who seem to have fantastic critical facilities - and I always feel very privileged if I get a comment from them.
That's not to say I don't welcome comments from others - I do! I love getting even a simple 'Like this' - we all do.
That's why we post, isn't it? To make a connection with other human beings? Re-assure ourselves that we're not the only strange bod on the planet ... or at least that our own particular brand of madness is perfectly normal.

For those of us (like me) who aren't blessed with any kind of critical genius - the only tick-box I'd like to see would be one that simply said something along the lines of 'I like this poem and I appreciate the chance to read it'.

Or perhaps I should just put that more often.
:)
Cx

Of course, I'd also like a button that said 'I think this is egregious nonsense' and another that said 'meh'and perhaps one that said....%$£"**&&.

But that's just me.

:-)

I do think a 'smileys' capability would help. The range of smileys available nowadays is such that you can indicate much more clearly when you are trying to be funny, ironic, avoiding a conflict, angry, drunk, puzzled, embarassed, ashamed, sorry etc.

I could have done with all of those recently.

The ability to do 'bold' and itallics in the comments section would help too.

:-)

Jx

funny? ironic? angry? drunk? puzzled? embarrassed? ashamed? sorry? You? Surely not! ;-) Lovya! xx

John - if you have smiley central on your pc, it is possible (or used to be) to include a smiley face or other suitable character in comments. I used to include them in mine just to colour things up a bit ;-)

As for the original topic of thanking people for comments i think it's lovely to thank and be thanked. I can fully understand there will be times when several comments have been made on a poem it does take a little time but how much time did the commenter take to actually read, consider the poem and their words then go on to make the comments?

Maybe it would be nice to say a thank you for recent comments on some of your work, say after every 3 0r 4 posted just to acknowledge they have been accepted and appreciated.
I agree with those who don't want a 'like' button. Next thing on the list would most likely be a rating facility based on a 1 to 10 whether people like it or not. Yuck!

What does meh mean? I've been meaning to ask someone this for ages.
I'd quite like to be giving poems marks out of ten. In fact, if this were applied to competitions there would be no need for voting.

Well at least this thread has opened up a lot of discussion on other issues - selfishness of some poets being one of them.

I can't abide poets who just post and don't give anything back. I don't expect them to necessarily comment on mine cos they might not like them; but if I can see that they are not commenting on anyone else's either, then I can see that they are just full of their own ego. Then, like Ann, I stop bothering to read their work. I only make exceptions to that rule if a poem is mega good or rich in ideas - but I'd have to read it to deduce that...

Yes - emoticons would be good ... and perhaps a spell-checker too (with English English! 'cos I'm pedantic and old-fashioned like that) ... though I don't think the spell-checker would pick up when idiots use malapropisms like 'critical facilities' when they mean faculties. I think a critical facility is ICU isn't it?

Ray - I think 'meh' means the same as 'wha'eva!' but being an old person I'm not entirely sure.
Cx

Yes - in comments and discussions, I've often wished I had the facility to use italics or bold. In the grand scheme of things, these are all pretty trivial though - not worth spending a lot of money or time on - particularly if that is time being given freely.

The important changes have been made. Gosh - do you think we are nearing a time when WOL is totally perfect? We'll have to set to work on ourselves then.

Re commenting.... I find it hard commenting if I don't understand a poem - the ideas behind it. What can you say other than it sounds nice? Poems that are hard to understand I tend to skip over therefore cos I don't have time to read over and over again - it's nothing personal at all. Things just have to be obvious for me unless I am feeling generous or have absolutely nothing better to do than thrash out meaning.

Definition of meh :.
(mē')

1. (n.) A multi-purpose response, primarily used to imply a degree of indifference. Tone of voice and circumstance often implies a meaning. Can be used when you don't want to answer an awkward or embarrassing question, or if you just plain have nothing else to say, and you want the other person to interpret the "meh" however he/she chooses. As in: Q: "What do you think of my new dress?" A: "Meh." or Q: "What do you want to do tonight?" A: "Meh."

-----

I think, when poets post a poem there is always an implied 'what do you think of my poem?' question, and 'meh', or 'indifference' is often my response. I was sort of joking about needing to say 'meh', I have learned (very slowly) not to comment upon 'meh' poems, but I do wish more poems would sparkle a bit on here.

A sparkling icon would be good!

:-)

Jx

Can we have a "Doh!" button please? And "Na-na-na-na-na!" one too? ;-)

Well I still think 'wha'eva' sums up meh - just more succinctly :)

My understanding is that the point of blogs is not - 'please admire my sparkling new poem' - more like - 'this is what I've got so far, what do you think? and can you help at all?' .... or perhaps we should re-name blogs - works in progress?

So - no, meh, wha'eva ... or anything like that not very useful to someone who wants to improve. I accept 'this is lovely' isn't either - but it does produce a nice warm glow ... so that's all nice and lovely, innit!
;)

Cx

I think you sum up the dilemma fabulously. 'No comment', is obviously not helpful, and is probably harmful, 'this is lovely' gives a warm glow but isn't helpful, and is probably harmful, but take it from me, most poets do not seem to be presenting a 'this is how far I've got so far, can you help'? message...certainly not when I've tried to help them.

Jeez, you'd think I was hanging their baby by its ankles off a motorway bridge...or sumfing.

:-)

Jx

Well, John...
I was once inspired to write a Triolet after reading yours, but you totally ignored mine, and I never knew if it was any good or if I had missed something in following the rules... Thanks.

Thanks for the explanations of meh.When I post a poem it is usually a "this is what I've got so far, any suggestions?" but is this why most people on WOL post? Some do, most don't, I'd have thought.

That would be another good subject for a thread - Why do we post? (Or is it blog?) I just do it cos I suddenly feel I have to! Like falling asleep or having a wee! Sorry to lower the tone!

Blimey, I thought I was the only one who upset folks on here. Rather pleased I'm not. Way to go Steve! :-)

Jx

hm, yes.. most threads do tend to get around to comments made don't they :-)
Maybe we should/could set up a discussion again on that topic with possible suggestions for other users?

Might be interesting to see if and how people's views have changed or not. I know some of mine have changed as to what is acceptable as well as my reactions to comments and it does seem as though there are quite a few regular posters who would welcome and dare i say prefer a more critique style comment among the ones who praise them too.

Anyone up for it?

Steve, John, anyone who wants serious critique of their work, or help developing a particular poem - may I suggest:

http://www.writeoutloud.net/public/blogentry.php?blogentryid=17154

You will definitely not get the comment 'I like this' - I promise you.

Personally, I haven't got the nerve ... I'm a scribbler and I don't think anything I have written to date is robust enough to stand up to that - and even if IT is ... I'm not :)

Looking forward to reading a Write Club thread from one of you :)

Cx

Blimey Chris - that's going to take a bit of reading to absorb - will have to return later!

The point I wanted to make is that people who turn to poetry are normally on a journey. Sometimes they are traumatised by events in their lives. Even if they are not writing about it, it may affect the way they react/interract with other people initially. I suppose all that introspection might also make them a tad selfish in commenting on others.

When we are commenting on new poets I think we have to be aware of that. We also have to take into account a poet's age and give them a little lee way for any lack of rounded ideology.

Critique is helpful but it needs to be offered tactfully or not at all. (e.g. if something is very poor - give a couple of suggestions, not go to town on rubbishing it.)

I agree. People particularly need encouragement early on. Write Club is a gladiatorial arena for the very experienced (with a masochistic streak if the link above is anything to go by)

On reflection, yes, point taken, an icon clicking approach to saying thank you is not the answer. But all the thanking does clog up Comments. It would be nice if there was a way of sending a couple of sentences of thanks privately (not saved once read) without it being a full-blown saved-for-all-time-unless-deleted public comment

The 'marks out of 10' idea is interesting and potentially fun. But it should be voluntary - something the poet can choose or not. A much (much) milder version of Write Club.

Thank you.

...for this thread which highlights one of our internal discussions about if and how to differentiate on the site between "work in progress" (anyone make suggestions on this poem of mine please), and finished work (not going to change it because this is my finished poem what I think is perfect as it is).
If there was one area of the site for each of the above, the notion goes, it would be apparent when feedback was being requested.
Thank you.

And...
I cannot believe that you wordsmiths are wanting graphic symbols to avoid having to compose your own reply. This is a writer's site :-)
As for commenting, the answer to that dilemma is simple. If you can't any think of anything to say, say nothing. As in life, doing things because you feel obliged often leads to resentment, though how that stands with courtesy, not sure.
And if you are worried what people think if you don't comment, stop worrying. They will think it anyway.
Spell-checkers are the last resort of a literary sloth. Buy a dictionary (plus writer's dictionary, thesaurus, classic style guide, etc) and use it until it's dog-eared. Enjoy!

Hmm, does all that sound too directive and judgmental? I hope they don't think...

Emoticons, spell-checkers - yes, they're both short-cuts ... but I don't agree that they're necessarily evidence of sloth.

I (usually) don't have too much trouble with spelling - because my brain works that way, but I know many people far brighter than I am who can't spell for toffee! And if you can't spell and find dictionaries daunting (some people do) then why not have something do it for you automatically? Besides - even the best make mistakes from time to time. Labour saving devices have been invented by people who want to save time and do something with a little less effort - do you wash your clothes by hand? or scythe your lawn perhaps?
I have several dictionaries, in several languages, all well-used, and often perused for fun (yes, I know it's a bit geeky but I like words).

Emoticons are a different matter. I think communicating electronically takes out a few very important factors we all use for understanding each other - body language, facial expressions and tone of voice. We have a tendency to read things according to our own internal voice; for instance - if you're feeling angry, upset or depressed in real life, then you are more likely to interpret what someone has written in a more negative way than you would if you were feeling more positive. Emoticons help redress that imbalance to some small degree, I think.

Cx

Thank god for Julian from admin. I'm sorry if I ruffle a few feathers here, but is this discussion really necessary? Have we really had a problem with the whole 'thankyou' thing on this site? If you want to thank, thank, if you feel moved, annoyed, driven, (etc) to comment, do it, thats been there from the beginning and its pretty straight forward. I think the whole posting without commenting thing is bollocks, I know alot who read alot of work and don't comment because it has already been said. And i know alot of people that read from this site who are not members and so cannot comment. I have commented to say i merely liked work a few times because i really really did like it and i wanted the person to know that their words touched me (and yes from a critical point of view this is good because you have caused a reaction in someone and isnt that the point? whether the reaction is positive or negative) but i don't scan the site looking to see who does comment and who doesn't.

I rarely thank commentators, unless I choose to enlarge a point made, which moves the response into a discussion, I hope. I prefer to spend my time reading and appreciating other poets' works, and commenting with purpose. This site has DRIVEN me back to critical textbooks and an extensive wonderful overview of poetry again. I have actually enjoyed STUDYING UP, feeling the push and pull of poetry dialogue bashed around between rival poetic outlooks from FOREVER. I've just dipped a toe, but the 'poetry pond' is freshly stimulating.

Chris - I remember that thread you posted a link to. There were several others too :-)
The last time i enquired about write club (not that i was thinking of entering any of my measly offerings by the way but because i was genuinely interested in reading them)
I was told they had a few poems put forward for review but the reviewer wasn't enthralled or apparently interested enough in them to actually review them.
It seems to me that even the ones doing the reviews have certain expectations of the work they are prepared to add their knowledge and opinions on. Thing is... what about the poor poets who went to the trouble of sending in a poem for review then were ignored.
Not very encouraging is it.

I've decided i love the idea of emoticons. Thumbs up and thumbs down and funny faces or pulled ones.
Thank you :-)

To go back to Marianne's comment, I think she may have a point. If you are just dipping in and out now and again, the whole balance of posting/commenting probably doesn't register or seem important. Perhaps those of us who build WOL into our daily routine overthink things a bit. After all, no one is obliged to read or comment on anything. You either want to do it or you don't.

I don't think that people are scanning the site with the purpose of deducing who is and isn't commenting though Marianne. You just can't help but absorb a picture of commenting trends when you spend a lot of time on here.

I take your point though. Instead of moaning about people who don't comment, perhaps we should be celebrating those who do. Comments make the site interesting for me. Without them it would be very dry bones.

No comment.