I've been on WOL for over a year now and had the vague impression that we're a broad-minded lot who write about anything and everything. Then something got me thinking about things we don't write about - things in which people invest a lot of time or energy or emotion, but which are below the poetic radar. A 'discussion starter' list might be as follows (in no particular order) -

* Debt / being short of money
* Unemployment
* Being bullied
* Baldness / wigs /toupees
* Male impotence / Viagra
* Vasectomy
* Circumcision
* Sexual frigidity
* Periods / PMT
* Unpleasant / embarrassing medical conditions
* Affirmations of religious/ philosphical faith
* Involvement in crime
* Involvement in scandal
* Unpleasant personal habits
* Cooking
* Hobbies, crafts and pastimes
* Moving House
* DIY
* Marriage proposals
* Gym / fitness / yoga / pilates etc
* Competitive sport
* Alcoholism
* Being overweight

Maybe some of these areas of experience have been covered on WOL and I've missed it. Maybe they don't really take lots of time/energy/emotion or they're not really important. Or maybe there is potential for being more open and honest, and for being more interested in what's around us and working our imaginations harder.

Hi Dave. Interesting list. Some of these have definately been covered. I think I hav seen and therefor could cross off poems on Alcoholism / baldness or wigs / cop sport / periods.

proof

The Cat Sat on the Matt


Uncle Matt, Had a cat
Which sat on his head every day

It was my belief
He was bald underneath

But I never found out either way.

© Winston Plowes 2009

Dave, I've written so many poems mentioning Viagra that my wife won't come anywhere near me.

Thanks Win and Ray for two huge chuckles. Felicitations to Mrs. Miller.

Developing the theme, mental illness could have been on the list but Gemma Lees has done ever so well in that area. She's shown that it's possible to write really good stuff about a difficult subject. I thought 'Keep Talking' was outstanding.

Thanks Dave - you've compiled a great tick list for us here. Can't believe I haven't yet written a poem about circumcision or vasectomy. Could I also add castration to your list? x

Maybe we could pick one of these as a title for the successor to the pandora thread?
win

I was thinking the same Winston. By and large, most of us write from experience - or experience colours our poetry. Therefore, who the hell would want to write about penile dysfunction or sexual frigidity...we'd rather admit to bestiality...
Perhaps we should challenge all poets to do just that - at least it would make a change of theme!

Premature ejacu...

Hmmmm. Poems on bestiality - and who's on here discussing it? An ostrich and a gorrilla!!! Right! ;-)

I wasn't suggesting we write about bestiality - though you can if it floats your boat Ann...

In a past life I came across (if you'll excuse that expression) a woman who complained that she'd caught her husband having sex with their pet dog. After all the traumas that one would expect from such a revelation I saw her again and asked how they were getting along - 'we're staying together for the sake of the puppies' was her modest reply.

If we wanted to look at it in less specific terms, we could call it cross pollination, dissemination or animation - I am sure there are lots of ways of handling Winston's suggestions in a civilised manner. I would so look forward to reading everyone's take on the theme..

Maybe all the ladeez could write about vasectomeez and all the gents could write about periods. It all sounds like a turn off to me - embarrassing personal habits anyone? Maybe writing poetry is an embarrassing personal habit!! ;-) It is an interesting line of thought but I don't know if it has the wonderful poetic feel of Pandora. What about fairy tales? Or good v evil?

Ah,but Ann,the most interesting topics are sometimes to be found in the gutters of life! I reckon Dave has a point!

Things we don't write about. (for Dave)


there’s no denying it – I’m up to my eyebrows in skint
and work’s as scarce and hard as flint round these parts
in fact as hard as hearts of those who taunt me - call me
slaphead, tell me I need thatching; and that itch that needs a
scratching? – no chance, when there’s no action in my pants,
no thrills when there’s no blue diamond pills. the snip?
I’ve had it at both ends – now part of me is not protected
and two more are not connected and even if I could
get half erected she’s as cold as ice, says it’s not nice
or her cycle’s wrong or I just waited far too long
her oestrogen has all dried up - not like my boils and
halitosis, carbuncles and cirrhosis, still I put my faith in God
and Moses, Freud and Descartes I suppose I should
be doing time for murder rape and fraud except for
forgiveness – Praise the Lord, my life is always
front-page-news must be the company I choose
divers and duckers and high-rent hookers
you’d think that there was ten of me all
sleeping with the enemy and you’re reading
in the press that despite the success he still picks his nose
and spits toenails in the kitchen when he’s fixing jalapenos
he knows not to get silly on chillies but still he’s a mess
with a mean streak at chess thinks he’s the best with
a lean clean breaststroke and all that folk music
gettin outta town brotha just movin junk
from one place to anotha motha
spanners hammers tequila slammers
and he stammers when he asks her
but the smile don’t mask the thoughts she’s thinking
he knows he’s sinking shrinking squinting
in the sunshine of a tai chi morning stretching
yawning saluting the sun when the inner
sinner wants to shimmy up the
winning post and he just mostly (always) needs
a drink to stop him thinking of the daily salary
of all those calories and grease and he daren’t
think the word obese

let alone write about it . . .





Glad I got that off my chest Dave, thanks for the excuse!

Regards,
A.E.

Anthony - You need to put this to music and do an audio for us : )
Tu me fais rire !

Anthony you are indeed a genius and a god among men! But as you'd obviously win, maybe we could leave out the competition altogether and just crown you the leader of the pack!

Blimey. Didn't log in yesterday and return to find Anthony's masterpiece. Strewth. It would have gone down a storm at the Tudor last night. I wish I could match it with something equally clever and entertaining but am out of my league.

I was talking in the car with Chris Co (who deservedly won the Liverpoetry prize on Wednesday - not sure if that's going to get reported anywhere). People are pretty good at talking about sex and death and all sorts of difficult subjects now. But we still skirt away from POWER. When two people or two groups are jostling for position, when two alpha males both want primacy in a situation, when a decision has to be made and neither side will back down (BA now), when horns are locked. The amount of brooding, planning and muttering in corners that goes on can be striking. Lots of emotion, but we don't write about it.

On a lighter note I'd like to see a poem about open mic night comperes if there's anyone out there with a gift for caricature with the written word. One has to be grateful to them for doing a difficult job for the general good, but they're a funny lot (in both senses of the word)

Will post a poem about power tomorrow - if you insist! ;-)

Oy - flattery will get you everywhere matie - and I must say, I agree with every word....
but I really want to hear about the things you CAN'T write about - your embarrasing personal habits, personal dysfunctions, most socially unacceptable fantasies.... or perhaps the possibility of their existence is a place you can't go...LOL xx

No - I realise you weren't trying to flatter - I just get a bit embarrased sometimes when people praise so I have to make a joke of it.

I would love to hear you write a poem about your big breasted nursing nurses...though I wouldn't be surprised if Peter Crompton hadn't already written one! You don't seem to get many men writing about liking little pin prick ones, come to think of it...

I think Nash wrote a poem about Chemistry - though it didn't quite fit into the science parameters. I guess most scientist don't tend to write poetry unless they are mad professors like Dear Dermot...

A poem about flower arranging or oragami - now that would be fascinating - but only as a metaphor/allegory...

Don't get your coat or I shall be forced to put my shoes on...

I understand what you were saying now. Rather than concentrate on finding outlandish subject matters to write about, we should be looking for new and original ways of exploring those that matter to us. Yes, there is a lot of merit in that argument - though I was looking forward to a few weird poems coming out of this thread. I now have an idea for one myself, if I ever get a minute to explore it...

Strangely enough, I never write about my children even though I love them more than anything in the world. And even though many of us on here are parents, we don't write about parenthood very much do we? Are our children private to us maybe? We seem able to write about our parents more easily.

That’s probably because your poetry is an escape for you from the real world – much like mine. Love for your children is also a given, part of the every day, so something that you might be less likely to want to write about.

I can think of one person who writes about their child, but that is inspired by the lack of time they are able to spend with them and the resulting pain – cathartic poetry which is very moving.

I once wrote one about the school play which was inspired by my daughter – it explored the love between parent and child in a humouress setting, with the frustrations of being a single parent chucked in on the side. Funnily enough my children have just inspired me to write a poem about a dying bird. The children are not the centre of the poem though – it is about the struggle for life and the props that we need. It wouldn’t have been thought of without them though.

I have enjoyed this thread – everyone’s contribution gets me thinking…

This will be my second attempt at posting this. Lost it when I tried to post, last time. In future I will write all comments in word, then cut and paste!

A friend of mine just sent me a poem about small breasts LOL - I thought I'd share it with you since it is rather lovely. It is by Leonard Cohen.

Beneath My Hands ("In my hands, your small breasts ...") from "The Spice-Box of Earth"

Beneath my hands
your small breasts
are the upturned bellies
of breathing fallen sparrows.

Wherever you move
I hear the sounds of closing wings
of falling wings.

I am speechless
because you have fallen beside me
because your eyelashes
are the spines of tiny fragile animals.

I dread the time
when your mouth
begins to call me hunter.

When you call me close
to tell me
your body is not beautiful
I want to summon
the eyes and hidden mouths
of stone and light and water
to testify against you.

I want them
to surrender before you
the trembling rhyme of your face
from their deep caskets.

When you call me close
to tell me
your body is not beautiful
I want my body and my hands
to be pools
for your looking and laughing.

beautiful poem is. so thats how its done, leonard cohen eh?

we tend to write aboiut all the taboos and leave the usual and far more delicate and interesting...like drinking tea for example. its a complex and rewrding experience but i read/write far more of death, sex and violence.

im with boy george on that one...id rather have a nice cup of tea.

also some mention has been made to a lack of poems about the sciences. A lot of my own poetry includes the sciences or scientific ideas expressed through petry as an art form. many visual artists use maths and science in their work i.e. peter randall-paige (sculptor-exhibition yorkshire sculpture park present)Its not immediately apparent but intrinsic to his work. I think poets are no different, as humans think using arts/maths/science on every level, its just how we express it is different. I have always loved the freedom I have to study these areas through literature and fiction making word study my fav..

Just a few thoughts.

I know I've said this before (and been ridiculed for it) but I'm wondering if I'm alone in that when I'm writing anything I do tend to try to consider a potential readership. As poets, or at least aspiring poets, unless we are writing purely for ourselves, we must at least be hoping that at least someone will want to read what we write, and hopefully gain from that experience? So what do people want to read/hear?

Unless it's a case of "ars gratia artis" I assume that at some time someone will be reading what I've written. (Why would I write it/blog it otherwise?) Maybe we don't write about the aforementioned topics because no one wants to read about them. Ask yourself what you want to read about; what poems and subjects have been popular; what stirs, engages and moves people; what they identify with etc.

If faced with some of the proposed subject matter I would have to think really carefully whether I would want to read it - purely because it doesn't interest me (except maybe out of curiosity.)

Of course, any subject is worthy of being written about, but I'm not sure I could write anything about some of these "taboo" subjects that might bring anything interesting to them or make them worth reading/performing.

I'm sure (in fact I know!) there are those out there who will say that popularity is no measure of how succesful a poem is; but what's the point of writing the best poem ever, if no one ever reads it? And indeed, how do you then measure the success of that poem?

I'm sure we could all write one of those "cat sat on the mat" poems around any of these subjects, but could we really be confident of writing anything of note? And isn't that what we ought to aim for?

For this reason I'm not going to "blog" my earlier nonsense as suggested; because that's what I consider it - nonsense - a light-hearted response to Dave's thread, never intended for anything other than what it is - spur of the moment disposable scribbling.

I fully expect that not everyone will agree with what I've suggested, and that's fine. I also expect to be "quoted" quite out of context at some stage for someone's amusement -yes there are poetic "voyeurs" out there. (I just hope they have Kleenex handy.)

But it seems to me to be a given - if you are committing your thoughts to paper or electronic blog then it is because you are hoping they might be read. Surely it follows that they are more likely to be read if the subject matter is interesting?

I will now get out my asbestos coat while the "purists" prepare their flame-throwers . . .

There are lots of thoughts wrapped up in what you just said. Are we talking about not writing on subjects that are boring to us or are we talking about subjects whose taboos prevent us from writing about them?

The sexual taboo stuff, I could only write about in a humouress way – but perhaps with an undercurrent of pathos – or ‘love conquering all’ ideology. I think that would probably apply to many others – there are some places you just don’t go with poetry.

I never consciously think about what my audience will want – my poetry just come from inside. I’m not a naturally controversial person though, so hopefully I don’t offend or bore too much. You probably need to bear in mind that that any audience is comprised of very varied personalities. Stuff that I often find vile, seems to find itself an appreciative audience. That same audience might consider some of my stuff to be too twee, too telly, too anything…

Would I want to read poetry written on any of these unusual subjects? That would probably depend on who had written it and how it was handled. By and large, someone has to tap into my funny bone or my emotions to make me engage with a poem. I’m sure any of these subjects could be presented in a way that does that. It probably wouldn’t be brilliant poetry – but how much of what we read is?

isobel and darren...i have been writing about bestiality for sometime as it is a favourite thing of mine to do (write that is...not actually fuck my dog - although sometimes Id rather ;0)And i do like to spend my time sitting on naked bunny ladies knees...ive always thought animals far more agreeable than people. x

I wouldnt write about the stressful mundanities or people's farts cos for one its bad enough to experience a house move without writing about it...and I wouldnt want to inflict. farts? well they're better forgotten by our consensus sets of sensible manners.

Rachel - few people leave me speechless! Camping with you in the Lakes will be a laugh a minute... just promise not to bring any sheep home...

oo chris...whatever they have done theyve been told now...unless its me and i plead innocence by stupidity.

howevere you have hit upon a good taboo...not many poems that directly slag people off. this Im glad about but im sure we all could write some awful resentful poetry...I hope you get this resolved or feel better on it...'take no notice' is a great piece of advice xx

would like to ask people to comment on the usefulness of manners and which we need and which are just for show...

Is. its ok as ive never been attracted to those awful sheep perms...cows make for rather dull companions and well pigs just smell...but horses now they have hidden lengths ..i mean depths (!)

Ann, your comment about children is very interesting, and true for me too - hadn't thought of it.

I loved the Leonard Cohen poem. Could you put it on the dormant Leonard Cohen discussion Iz?

Chris - cryptic to me too, but I really do hope it gets sorted out. Hang in.

Rachel asks about politeness. For me, courtesy and respect seem pretty good guiding principles, so long as it's not a false courtesy born of 'respectability' or the like. It'll be interesting to see what people say

I'm with Iz in not thinking too much about an audience. The words and what lies behind them start jumping around in my head demanding to be written down. The question in my mind when starting this thread was whether it is possible to cast one's mind wider before/as the words start jumping, but perhaps without 'writing to a theme'. Which I can't do apart from a Pandora's Box haiku.

If it doesn't sound too pretentious, maybe it's something like a state of reflective openness in which one has a growing awareness of what a big world it is out there, and looks beyond the narrow world of one's own feelings and existing interests/ horizon. For me this is just something to aspire to - I sure ain't arrived

Dave,

I found the last paragraph of your post very telling. I hope you won't mind me quoting you:

"If it doesn't sound too pretentious, maybe it's something like a state of reflective openness in which one has a growing awareness of what a big world it is out there, and looks beyond the narrow world of one's own feelings and existing interests/ horizon. For me this is just something to aspire to - I sure ain't arrived."

Looking beyond the narrow world of one's own feelings and existing interests/horizons is precisely what I had in mind when saying that I feel poets should consider their potential audience. I may write something that I feel is brilliant (unlikely, very unlikely) but if readers feel that it's a load of twaddle then I'm in a minority of one! Yes of course there's that element of writing for myself, I can't deny that - if I didn't get something from it then I wouldn't be doing it. But what really gives me a buzz; and I expect it's the same for most of us, is audience and peer approval. I guess it's a kind of "validation" that what we are doing is worthwhile and has some value.

I'm not saying that everyone should consider their audience in every letter, word and stanza that they write, but if writers want their poetry to be read and appreciated by others (is there anyone out there who doesn't?) then a little detachment and objectivity is surely necessary.

I've never submitted anything for publication, or knowingly entered any kind of competition, but if I were to then surely it would be foolish not to ask myself what the judges/audience might be looking for, rather than blindly firing off poems which I thought were wonderful but had absolutely no appeal to anyone else?

When we blog something or enter a slam (for those who do) aren't we at least hoping that someone in some way will appreciate what we've written? If we're not then the whole thing seems fairly pointless, unless it's deemed to have some therapeutic value. Personally I can't see much therapy in either being told one's poetry is crap, or, worse still, being ignored.

WARNING! WARNING! WARNING!

Provocative statement coming up:

Writing for yourself is merely literary masturbation . . .

Discuss . . .

Oooh, I know what we don't write about much - work/jobs!

And following on from Anthony's comment, when I write I don't consider the potential reader at the time, but when I post a blog I do, just hoping somebody reads it. I think that's maybe the norm on here. Not sure about that being literary masturbation, more self expression, cos you can't help it. (Or is THAT a good definition of masturbation anyway, literary or otherwise!)

'Writing for yourself is merely literary masturbation . . .

Discuss . . . '

... in that everybody does it really?

Of course you're writing for yourself, even if the subject matter is not about 'feelings', even if you're thinking 'I know what'll fire them up/please them/have them rolling in the aisles' .... if you're not writing for yourself then you're a journalist.

And it doesn't make you go blind either :)

Cx

Writing for yourself is merely literary masturbation . . .

Discuss . . .


By the sheer quirk of coincidence, I started ‘writing’ around about the same time I started masturbating - the age, I suppose, is irrelevant - and far too revealing - but the upshot being there are some remarkable similarities between a literary masturbation and sexual physiological interference.

This is by no means a ‘detailed study’ but in my opinion - literary masturbation is often known as a more colloquial pastime - diary writing.

I would genuinely be interested in just how many of today’s writers and poets actually felt compelled to write when they were younger? Interestingly, many writers express an awareness that they’ve been writing for what’s usually described as ‘a considerable amount of time’ but few seem to verbalise their motives for writing - in fact, some people would rather more freely admit to knuckle shuffling instead of watching, say, ‘World In Action’ - than would openly admit to spending an hour writing their daily journal than informing a world what IS or what ARE their motive(s) for wanting to write down their thoughts in a diary that is nearly always never going to see the light of day. OK, there are exceptions… Ann Frank and Adrian Mole are perhaps two poles of the diary revelation planet - but hey, I doubt if Ann Frank realised just how significant her effectual ramblings would become…or Master Mole for that matter…

Writing for yourself IS literary masturbation - but it’s also an important step to becoming a more rounded writing adult - just like masturbating is… but that’s another story.

How many of WOL’s poets admit to writing and not even knowing the reason(s) just WHY they were writing? Well, I did. I used to write all sorts of stuff and nonsense - I do still - but I’d like to think that I’ve benefited from all the previous stuff and nonsense that now lays idle inside tatty diaries and are food for paper mites if nowt else.

Which finally brings me to my point…

I’d wager that most people (poets) featured on WOL began writing around a similar age - I don’t mean writing because they’re forced to write in school or elsewhere but writing because they felt a certain compulsion to write - as if they were uncontrollably compelled to write. Often, those who come to writing later in life usually do so after a 'significant emotional event' and writing provides a conduit for their catharsis - their motives may be different but that 'writing widget' is finally triggered inside their minds. For many this compulsion dilutes over a period of time often settling back to its original level. Yet it’s becoming increasingly common to find that as there are now various platforms for a person’s writing - they often feel encouraged to write more and more - and some writers even want to improve the standard from where they’re currently writing at, because the sentiment of their unpolished words shows great potential, and take their writing to the next level and away from writing as an emotional catharsis.

With regards to ‘should a writer (or a performer) consider their audience’ - of course a writer should consider their audience - once your writing is exposed into any public domain every writer should be prepared for the fall-out that invariably arrives. Once it does - you should avoid jerking yourself off to the few futile words of encouragement - and dismiss the rest with the contempt it deserves.



' and doesn't it make you go blind...'

Who said that?

Just to prove Darren right I guess - I loved "creative" writing at school, but never tried poetry, just stories. But art took over. I went to art school, then had children and they took over, then earnt my living as a sort of jobbing craftsperson, got bored, went to uni, did a proper job, no time for art or poetry, moved to Cornwall, back to art, partner died, couldn't paint, after a year, discovered poetry. Poetry has sort of "moved me along" and got me out of my initial grief. I've moved on too. But I do wonder if I ever "settle down" and feel content, will the poetry dry up? Anyway, that's enough of my literary masturbation. And I have never managed to keep a diary after about March! Too boring!!

Deleted what I said cos it was a load of twaddle. :) xx

And? what's new ?!

Very interesting to read what you've said Anthony - and you've written plenty of good stuff to 'prove your point' (if proving points is what this is about). But there is a different experience and perspective (if sharing experiences and perspectives is what this is about). And surely it can be 'both-and'
- it doesn't have to be 'either-or'.

My experience - and it seems that of others - is of NOT writing for the audience. The question /challenge was to do with tuning in to what really matters for people. And the measure of that is what they/ we spend time, energy and emotion on.

I wrote a poem once about a man searching for his wedding ring with a metal detector, where he'd thrown it away, while his wife watched. Lots of time, energy and emotion involved there, but it was only when it was finished that I wondered whether it was worth posting. Chris Co won on Wednesday night with a poem about a missing person. I imagine he wrote it because he was gripped by the sadness and difficulty of a loved one going missing and 'tuned in' to what it must be like. There are many many other examples on WOL

I don't think writing like that is literary masturbation. Even though it is essentially solitary and disregards the audience, it is focussed, sometimes with a fierce concentrated energy, on the situation and the people being written about. The imagination is in thrall - not to the posited demands of a future audience - but to the human feelings, dilemmas and hopes, and what something inside is insisting should be written about them.

Then (and only then) one sits back and wonders whether it's worth posting. One might tweak it a little with a readership in mind. Or one might conclude (as Iz has done with her post
(-; ) that it's a load of twaddle and not trouble people with it.

Big D - two fingers - that vacuum where you stuff your nuts - if it isn't already full to capacity... x

yes nearly all my writing is ego masturbation. I dont write for an audience (nor do I paint for one.. the thought absurd) hoping/wanting people to approve is something else. I find work that is written this way by other poets far less engaging and I am thrilled by my reason to listen/read, when i get a glimpse of anothers world through their unique styles of imagery and expression, their perfectly individual ways of conveying perceptions of the only life they truly know, through skills of utilising language.

I also prefer the visual art of those wishing to convey an idea/state of thought over the desire to appeal to an audience. Warhol's work is interesting as it exploits that concept.

Tracey Emin made the 'pigeon on a pin' as a contribution to liverpool's artistic culture and representation of the original Liver Bird sculptures. Commissioned for display in the city, Emin's liver bird is diminished and humble and this could be said to reflect the artists thoughts on liverpool as a city. She has considered her approach but not to please an audience. It is good artwork but i dont like it. It angers me and I prefer the original birds designed entirely to please the people's sense of pride by reflecting a 'small nation'. What I like and what is worthy are different things.

We dont have to like modern art...its a new idea in itself...we can choose, we can select from a more prolific art arena, as with poetry.

Im all for individuality. national/group identity is inevitable but we can avoid becoming a mass by making that identity take into account our personal sense of uniqueness.


I started writing when i was at the beginning of my education in primary as i think id discovered reading as more fulfilling and interesting at that level (anything beats peter and jane argh) I think that which we read has direct influence on our writing as we process it into our consciousness and awareness of words and ways to use them.Did we start masturbating when we learned to really read?

masturbation is a great way to exercise fantasy and imaginative scenario creation...

its been suggested to me several times that I write for an audience and leave my more 'obscure' work on the page. ive no desire to do that. I write what i write. its cathartic. I am what i am...my work is what it is...i dont expect anyone to like it and if my only enjoyment is to wank over it myself well that's something good for me. Although im thrilled when people do express interest in a more inner state of my identity,one other than that which i present to the world and closer to the world in which i actually exist. My existential despair diminishes, I feel less alone. i wrote for years without reading it aloud or publishing it...im happier it has an audience and id be lying if i said i dont want you to like it..i just accept that you dont have to..theres no reason that states you should. And yes I get upset if its ignored. its an act of small bravery to expose your thoughts and Im much happier if someone hates it than is indifferent.But it doesnt exist because of that.
Like me as a person, my personailty, Im like...hate me, love me, like me, fight me, fuck me,argue me, flatter me, just dont ignore me or Ill write,read, breathe louder till you have to notice.
Im not saying that's clever...but its honest.
i believe the writer/artist to be the wounded healer.We are supposed to be sensitive, but i say be sensitive to ourselves not some notion of audience or we'll end up frought with an inability to please .


No lets all continue to engage the mind for an expression of our innermost and have a big wank off party at the end of the month...i love it!

My poem based on this topic is here..

http://www.writeoutloud.net/public/blogentry.php?blogentryid=11124

I've just read Anthony's poem incorporating all of Dave's listed topics. Absolutely inspired! ?

And I'm only 11 years late to the thread...