Okay, I've got to put this out there.

Over the last week I've seen almost two dozen poems that have been called or labelled haikus. This bugs me......because they weren't.

We cannot write haikus in English. Our language is not the same, it does not allow the correct rhythm and structure.

Leaving that aside though, and making the concession that there is an English language poetic form that has derived from the Haiku, these poems I have seen are clearly not Haikus.

I've seen poems of anywhere from 2 right the way to 12 lines that people are calling Haikus. Worse, still are the ones that rhyme.


Much like sonnets it seems the name of the Haiku (and if I must, the English deriviative) has been hijacked by someone wanting their poem to seem more traditional or, the biggest sin, wanting to seem clever and snobby.


Is it really just me that hates the way that poets are defactating all over some wonderful forms of writing, in order to do.....well truth is I don't know why they do it?

yes
we do
who the fuck are you?

This subject has been
well considered and discussed
elsewhere, have a look:

http://www.writeoutloud.net/public/newsgroupview.php?NewsThreadsID=764&NewsGroupsID=3

Although not the purest form of haiku, I understood that the acceptable form of haiku in English was the three-line version that accommodated five-seven-five vowel structures within it.

Graham, just to pick up on that, you've hit the nail on the head.

The "acceptable" English Haiku is everything that is wrong with the way a lot of poets write. Haiku is so much more than structure and verse (thanks for the link there paul).

Bolting together words into syllable structure that attempt to mimic the tones of Japanese and calling that a Haiku devalues a lot of the beauty of the form, content and style.


Calling a short English poem a Haiku, well, it's kind of like getting a blackbird, painting it white and calling it a dove. It's never going to be a dove, it might fool some ill-informed people, but for the most part it makes you seem a little odd.

Dear Martin,

You may well be quite right to decry stuff posted here under the auspices of being Haiku for not being Haiku; there's stuff posted here which isn't even poetry at all, however I think you are quite wrong to suggest that it is just not possible to write Haiku in English.

There are numerous haiku in English that obey the structural form, are euphonious, contain the element of nature, impermanence, evanescence and 'Wabi Sabi' of Zen and are wonderful haiku's in their own right. Just go find them, they are all over the place.

Cheers

Jx

I wonder . . .

Somewhere on a Japanese poetry blog site, is there a similar debate concerning the merits, or otherwise, of sonnets written in Japanese?

I have to say that I'm not a great fan of Haiku and all the other "imported" forms of poetry. They do seem to lose their relevance and purpose when tried in English, and dissolve into the rather simplistic trick of random utterance in 5-7-5 syllables. What's so clever about this magical formula? Why not any arbitrary syllable count? It seems to me to be more about an exercise in simple mathematics than poetry.

The appeal of haiku is more akin to that of sudoku/crosswords than poetry. Poetry for me will never be about syllable count/line structure and rigid formulae, but about the words used therein and the images created for the reader. Show me some really good haiku and you may convince me; but everything I've seen so far is so lightweight and inconsequential as to be a pastime for a boring rainy afternoon, but certainly not high art. There is definitely something lost in translation.

Regards,
A.E.

John, Haiku is far, far more than structural form. Oh an it's not nature but seasonal....the thought that things happen or can be related to seasons. They can be about nature, but don't need to be.

Even making the concession that you can write a poem that is an English derivative of Haiku, to even begin to approach the heart of what Haiku are in such a poem requires far more than many English speaking writers put onto the page.

*************

Anthony, obviously I agree that poetic forms often lose their innate charms when 'translated'. That said, I do feel that in some poetic forms there is an aesthetic quality that adds to the enjoyment of the poem.

For example, I like poems that are written with a certain meter. ((Oh and I should add here please don't think that I mean syllables. For example a pentameter means 5 stresses NOT syllables.)) If performed correctly, such poems can take on a sing-song quality that is interesting and engaging. All too often people get hung up because of their own lack of skill or belief that it is rhyming for rhyming's sake, but I think that a WELL CRAFTED poem that adheres to classic (or even modern) forms and structure can be really interesting to listen too.

Martin, thank you, you are so right...it is so much more...so, so much more. And, somehow, I had missed that. Thank you for pointing it out.

The difference between transient nature and 'seasonal' seems, to me, to be a very anal distinction...although I'm sure your elbow tells you otherwise.

You're going to go down a treat on here.!

: )

Jx

to quote Jack Kerouac;
" The Haiku was invented and developed over hundreds of years in Japan to be a complete poem in seventeen syllables and to pack in a whole vision of life in three short lines. A " Western Haiku" need not concern itself with the seventeen syllables since Western languages cannot adapt themselves to the fluid syllabic Japanese. I propose that the "Western Haiku" simply say a lot in three short lines in any Western language.
Above all, a Haiku must be very simple and free of all poetic trickery and make a little picture and yet be as airy and graceful as a Vivaldi Pastorella."
Love Kerouac or hate him, personally,I like this idea. But am re-titling mine as it isn't graceful or airy enough.

Okay, so let's same I am being slightly anal John, what I am simply trying to understand is why people need to label something differently to what it is.

Personally, if someone gets up and says they are doing a 'western' or 'modified' (or any other qualifying adjective) haiku, I more easily accept it. They are obviously paying lip service to a tradition, but I get disappointed if the poet says a poem is something it clearly isn't.

If a poem is free verse call it that. If it's a sonnet call it that. If it's a modern/western form of a haiku say it is that. What I struggle to understand is WHY people feel they should hi-jack these forms of poetry. It seems a bit, well pointless.

Martin, I think Chris means 'moot point'....although I suppose he could be telling you to shut up!

: )

In this instance (and let me tell you, this is an unusual experience for me) I agree with every word Chris said...except for 'mute', but, laying that aside, it is precisely the imprecision of the definition that confers the magic. You could use the same argument on every form of poetry from the Ghazal to the Villanelle, from the Haiku to the Limerick etc. Slavish attention to form...who needs it?

It is sometimes the imperfection that creates the beauty. I'd be more interested in what you think of this http://www.writeoutloud.net/public/blogentry.php?blogentryid=7344 and where you would place it in the poetic canon?

: )

Jx

My, my - you do have a bee in your bonnet about a certain poem don't you John?

Whilst we are questioning the validity of certain works on this site, perhaps you could also check out blogs 7246 and 7247. http://www.writeoutloud.net/public/blogentry.php?blogentryid=7246 www.writeoutloud.net/public/blogentry.php?blogentryid=7247 There are several other 2 line offerings by well known site members, but I'm really not into naming and shaming. We all have the option of commenting or ignoring. In my unhumble opinion that is the best course of action. I only tend to stray from that course over Poem of the Month and look what a mess that got me into...

Re the work that you have chosen to question. I would agree that it is not a classical poem as such. I have described it as a flow of consciousness - not one that you might like to listen to - but a flow none the less. No point in going over old ground again on a discussion thread but this site does allow the posting of prose as well as poetry.

Isobel,

I guess there may be quite a few people out there who hadn't realised that blogs 7246 and 7247 weren't poetry. Some of what seems to pass for poetry these days completely defeats me - from blatant and very ordinary prose chopped up to suit, to the supposedly poetic offerings within which I can find no poetic qualities whatsoever. Maybe it's just me, maybe I'm getting old and out of touch, maybe I never was in touch. Maybe I should just shut up . . .

Regards,
A.E.

No - don't ever shut Anthony - we hear too little from you nowadays. Yes, there are some poor offerings at times - but I guess we are all learning our craft on this site and I think it is possible to improve, the more you read and taste different styles. The important thing is to get the balance of criticism and encouragement right. This site is many things to many people. Social outlets to some, intellectual to others, a dumping ground to many more....
I often comment on poetry that isn't perfect - you'd be scratching around otherwise - poetry just has to make me think, smile or touch me in some way. Having said that, I find myself commenting less recently - maybe it's the sheer number of blogs or maybe I'm getting a bit jaded like yourself!

Back to the subject matter. I think Haikus are bits of nothing. An interesting doodle exercise, but I much prefer extended poetry with a freer form.

Ah well Isobel, maybe it was because I arrived here at precisely the moment that a certain other poem was creating laldy on here and I thought it was refreshing that folks didn't need to feel they had to be polite when faced with meretricious nonsense.


'All for evil to prosper is for....' etc.

: )



The literature in both cases was posted in the 'poets' showcase'...so you can forgive my misunderstanding, having stumbled across the site whilst googling 'poetry'.

Interestingly, if you Google 'Breathing faster, anguished vanquished grunts crashing trashing beneath him, you are humping and pumping.

Fuck! Fuck! Fuck! Fuck!' now...yes (yes, yes, yessssss!) you'll never guess what's the first hit?

Try it. : )

It works with 'You open your legs wide his cock enters you, he’s inside.

Oh God!

It feels so good dip, dip, dip'. too!


Oddly enough....it doesn't work with 'Pearls of semen ooze from shell pink portals.

Dribbling, piddling out and under you down, down, down, onto the bed sheet'. Which suggests the piece might not be as original a stream of consciousness as you might imagine.

What it will do is guarantee there will be some disappointed porn surfers arriving here from time to time!

: )

I'll stop now. Wouldn't want WOL to stop its inexorable ride up the Google porn search engine now, would we?

: )

Jx

I'll take your word for it on the googling front John... I don't think you can put Augusta's poem on the same platform as last month's POM. For one, it wasn't featured prominantly on our home page. For two, no-one but no-one has suggested that this should be Poem of the Month.

Had Ernesto's poem just been an ordinary blog, I might not have commented on it - and then again I might.... I found the subject matter and the violence of anal fisting quite repulsive. Nor was there any evidence to show that the victim was enjoying it. All in all, it was shock poetry. And why everyone was shocked when that shock spoke out, I've no idea.

I guess you must be shocked by Augusta's poem. I have no problems with that - just wish that you could focus less on whether it is a poem or prose and get to the heart of the matter - the fact that you disagree with the message it is putting out - that I could understand....

Not shocked by the 'poem' at all....shocked that anyone should consider it to be a poem...definitely.

I confess I was puzzled that 'A' should consider herself 'gifted' and could 'buy and sell us' and has had an 'expensive education' (which hasn't helped her ability to spell) and somehow thought that by insisting that it was a poem, it somehow magically became one.

I'm all for 'magic realism'....but there are limits. :)


Anyway, enough already!

I shall move on (sighs of relief all round).

:)

Jx

Hi Isobel/John,

I have to say it has saddened me lately that WOL seems to have deteriorated into something between a mutual backslapping free-for-all, and a place where (because it is a poetry website) anything can be posted and called poetry, simply by association.

I read offerings on here that are lauded by commentators, simply in the hope that similar comments will be returned. These comments appear so shallow and vacuous that I despair for the future of poetry. Where are the honest and objective critiques? Perhaps, as another discussion thread suggests, we daren't risk the truth anymore. Is this a symptom of the all-pervasive, politically correct teachings that all our efforts are deserving of equal praise; that any hint of criticism must be meant to be hurtful rather than helpfully constructive?

Now it seems everyone can pick up a pen or sit at a keyboard, and with very little effort produce and publish something which renders them a fully-fledged poet in a matter of minutes. They write it, and they decree that it's poetry, Q.E.D.

I care about poetry, I have done since childhood. What worries me is that children, or even adults, who have had no real exposure to poetry, might stumble upon some of these "self-proclaimed" poetic works and, either they will be put off poetry for life, or will seek to emulate (I will use Mr Fry's term) that very a**e-dribble.

Where will this take poetry? I fear if there is no challenge to the banal, uninspiring, instantly-writeable and equally instantly- disposable internet-litter out there, then perhaps we are facing a global-extinction event for poetry. I can see a scenario where, due to the unopposed claims of "charlatan" poets, it becomes impossible to distinguish what is and what isn't poetry. Therefore, everything, and nothing, is poetry at one and the same time.

I take the point (because I know, even if it isn't coming, someone out there is thinking it) that everyone has to start somewhere. But please, please, please, don't tell them they're Seamus Heaney when they are clearly not. And I know there are those out there who will say they have no wish to improve, and are content to remain in that blissful state. So be it. But where does this leave poetry? Are hundreds of years of art, culture and tradition bound for an all-enveloping ooze of indistinguishable, self-congratulatory blandness?

Not all writing that claims to be poetry is poetry. Not all writers who claim to be poets are poets. Or, conversely, perhaps we should all big-up these highly-inflated, yet fragile egos with faint praise, just in case someone might get a tad upset.

When I hear someone say, or see them write (and it happens fairly often) "I only write for myself," I am screaming inside "Then keep it to yourself!" If you post on a publically accessible blog, which is clearly, by example, a forum which invites and encourages comment (and you might even specifically request comment yourself) then you shouldn't be surprised, or throw a hissy fit when those comments are not all positive. Or perhaps we have discarded honesty for the sake of lovely, fluffy niceness.

For future reference; if anyone ever wishes to comment on anything that I post on here, I would much rather it be clawed and chewed to shreds by the Gryphons of honest and considered critique than massaged to death by the cute and cuddly bunnies of patronising bonhomie.

Sorry, I seem to have strayed from the thread topic of "When (is) a Haiku not a Haiku(?)" and wandered onto the broader path of "When is poetry not poetry?" In the current vernacular I guess "If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it's usually a duck."

I therefore declare the mallard hunting season open . . . grrr! ;-)

Regards,
A.E.

"I have to say that I'm not a great fan of Haiku and all the other "imported" forms of poetry."

---

Such imported styles as, say, the sonnet for instance? (imported from Italy by people such as Thomas Wyatt in the 1500's.)

All forms are "imported" from somewhere. And the English sonnet is a development from the Italian sonnet, just as the Western hiaku is a development from the Japanese haiku. And it's not like the haiku has been frozen in aspic either: there are as many debates about what constitutes a "modern haiku" (does it still need 17 sylables, wabi sabi, kigo etc?) in Japan as there are about what constitutes a poem in English.

...tell me again: how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

Anyone who might be interested in "rhyming haikus" might want to take a look in Paul Muldoon's Hay & Moy Sand and Gravel.

Beneath dry cold night
Warm death will fester; foster
Wet life's dancing light

Not only rhyming, but incorprorating five (count 'em, five!) inversions. Just to piss off the purists.

Hello everyone. I've just popped in to see what's going on and I see that WOL is still the same old cheerfully rancorous ragbag it always was. Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose.

Thanks to anyone who made it to my launch. Sorry I couldn't stop and chat but I was too busy being carried through the streets of central Manchester having laurel leaves strewn across my path (ouch! bare feet) afterwards (or was that in a dream?)

Seriously, thanks for all the people at WOL for their support for my little volume. It is greatly appreciated. Sorry I won't be at WOL HB tomorrow night....mine and the Libster's fourth anniversary meal...

A loada bollocks
Any six year old could write
In three random lines


Thought the debate needed ratcheting up a peg or two!

Not sure you 'quite get' the philosophy behind the Haiku John.

I say that in a deeply respectful way, which acknowledges your right to write shit, or any old crap, whenever you choose and to expect it to be warmly approved of and enjoyed by all in an appreciative atmosphere of mutual understanding.

I think you ratcheded the debate down, actually...but I mean that in a positive sense, and I am most thankful. I hope you win an award for your efforts soon.

: )

Jx

PS. Damn....I meant to stop posting on this thread...curse you!

: )

Oh noh! (that's a play in Japanese theatre)
steve smith

TO-CON-VEY ONE'S MOOD
IN SEV-EN-TEEN SYLL-ABLE-S
IS VE-RY DIF-FIC


(John Cooper Clarke)

: )

Jx

Maybe it's like flower arranging? (Three sticks in a pot with a bit of moss=wow=deep & meaningful) or a great big jug full of daffs. I like the daffs meself. ;-)

P.S. I seem to have killed off the two other discussions I added to - but maybe even I can't decapitate this one - it will run and run!

Post al you like
What you Lik e

h
o

w

you like or not as you like

Okay, I think it's fair to say that many people disagree with me, but might I ask (changing the direction of the discussion slightly) what people think a Haiku should actually be?


I think that a seasonal reference, lack of rhyming and the conveying of a truth or wisdom is essential to a Haiku.

Am I completely wrong?

I haven't any problem with rhyming and assonance if 'tis done well, but it is not at all necessary, nor forbidden. A sense of 'big/small' (moon-dewdrop, cloud-wing, eye of a bird-sky etc.) and the sense of the impermanence of anything and our tiny place in history or in this world...all of these things help a haiku rise above the trite 17 syllable half-jokes that pass for haiku.

Personally, I think it a great art and that most poems benefit from adopting some of the brevity and self contained beauty of the haiku in some way. I have no time for those who dismiss it thoughtlessly in the 'anybody could do that' sort of way.

JMHO

: )

Jx

Martin -

I think all poetry should have dragons and heros and be written in accentual alliterative meter.

If it ain't got dragons and heros and ain't written in accentual alliterative meter, it ain't poetry.

Am I completely wrong?

Of course I am.

Read Kerouac's hiaku.

Great suggestion....find them here http://users.rcn.com/jhudak.interport/Jack.html

Some wonderful stuff there.

: )

Jx

that's what i tried to tell you 11 days ago.

You did indeed!

He's great isn't he?

:)

Jx

John / Deborah

Thankyou for introducing me to the 'Kerouac American Haiku'.

This maybe a misnomer although I grant you they do have the right feel, don't want to get hooked up on this. Maybe we should just love them as poems.

To me things are like this -

I sometimes choose to try and write in some really difficult and sometimes frustrating forms (Ghazal / Haiku) and if I have done a good job, readers shouldn't be distracted by whether there is the right rhyming structure / syllable count etc. They should just enjoy the thing on the page. The form discussion comes later.

"Crossing the football field
coming home from work -
the lonely businessman." from your link Deborah is my favourite

Winston

For me, some of the greatest poems can also be enjoyed as a small collection of haikuesque observations connected together into a coherent whole.

I have posted this before, but for me, this is one of the greatest examples.

Full Moon and Little Frieda

A cool small evening shrunk to a dog bark and the clank of a bucket -
And you listening.
A spider's web, tense for the dew's touch.
A pail lifted, still and brimming - mirror
To tempt a first star to a tremor.

Cows are going home in the lane there, looping the hedges with their warm
wreaths of breath -
A dark river of blood, many boulders,
Balancing unspilled milk.
'Moon!' you cry suddenly, 'Moon! Moon!'

The moon has stepped back like an artist gazing amazed at a work
That points at him amazed.

(Ted Hughes)

Fucking genius!

IMHO

:)

Jx