As many of you know I'm not a very good poet. So please help me get better and give me your top tip to improve my poetry.

One tip per person please as I can't take in too much information at any one time.

Thanks

Poor Poet Paul

Oh là là... Je suis désolée, mais il n'y a rien à faire pour toi.

On second thought, maybe this will help...
http://www.writeoutloud.net/public/blogentry.php?blogentryid=11301

Post more poems! xx

Ha ha - it helps to be off your trolley. Have a break down and then pick up, pick up a pencil...

Yes - YOU should post more, and off your trolley - well .... perhaps least said there!
But if you want a serious answer - then I'd say make yourself more aware of all the good poetry out there ... read the stuff!
Cx

Yes, just stop nibbling on poor wee pit ponies and GET ON WITH IT!! xx

Stay up late. It frees the unconscious mind, and suddenly your head is full of words. Much better than a workshop.

Improving your poetry is too much like hard work and you don't look as if you've enough time left.So you really need a short cut to make your work more popular. Have you heard of Sylvia Plath?

Hey wait a minute...hold on! I hoped this discussion to be about how anyone could improve their poetry not to be a column to insult me.
:(

Well you thought wrong! Tee Hee! Love you really! Write more poems about gnomes!xx

Actually, I need some help too! Lost my poetic get up and go! Boo Hoo! Aidez moi aussi!

The more you worry about losing your muse the further away it gets. So don't panic, relax. and if you wrote 1 poem a week then after a year its nearly a book ful (A thin book admitedly) I have always found stout entices it back.

The whole work of Keats was written in 6 years.

Win

stout what?

1. Find something or someone you are interested in. There are a number of sources for ideas. Or just poach from the Bible...everyone else does.

2. Obsess about it/them. To the point where insomnia IS your sleep pattern. And remember there are laws against so-called 'stalking'.

3. Lose the ability to speak in full sentences due to constantly obsessing.

4. Slowly start to lose touch with 'reality'. At this point you may want to stop driving.

5. Get really quite bad-tempered and ill-mannered when anyone dares to try and speak to you whilst you are obsessing about the idea.

6. Pay attention to the word/phrase that runs around your head like a decapitated psychedelic white rabbit genetically spliced with an amphetamine-addicted psychotic Tigger. Not Pooh. You don't want to be a shit-head.

7. Give the fuck up trying to maintain any semblance of sanity, and write everything about it/them down. Purge.

8. Rearrange into a form that may or may not rhyme, then accompany with a picture that gives the poor bastards who have to read it a clue.

9. Rinse and repeat.

10. Don't try this at home.

'The whole work of Keats was written in 6 years.'

..... true, but I don't think Keats stopped writing because he'd lost his muse, more because he'd stopped breathing. Which is a bit of a drastic way to get your genius recognised.

Moving to Greece seemed to encourage Byron - though ultimately, I think even he found the toll taken by so much foreign travel was a bit killing.

Cx

Sorry, Paul. Could you start an alternative thread then in which we might insult you?

My top tip - find a poet whose work you like and study his craft carefully.

Then plagiarise it - if he's obscure enough no-one will notice.

Or you could just 'find yourself', embrace the fact that you are a poor poet and be at peace with your own ineptitude.

OK, I'll just change the name of this thread to 'Pop at Paul' and then go and have a cry.:'(

Ha - fooled you - if we really thought you were inept we would be giving you heaps of positive comment in with an incy wincy teeny weeny bit of crit - unless we came from down Serrrf of course, where they dish it out a little harsher :)

Thank you Iso! I'll change it to 'Praise Paul' now

a) Overuse the word 'ochre', some people seem to think it has a poetic value greater than the fucking stars- irrespective of context.

b) Make the lark your bird of poetic reference due to its romantic poet 'allusionary quality'.

and

c) always refer to yourself in the third person singular at poetry events.

These tips were brought to you by 'emperors new clothes grandure' in association with Soft Soap poetry wash up your mind liquid.

But Paul,
What is it that makes you think you are " not a very good poet?"
Is your verse the worse, a poor revue or a different venue, a line which cannot rhyme? We need to know the problem. We may not agree there is a problem. We cannot praise or deride what we do not understand. What would make you a good poet to our eyes and ears?!

Trying to ignore your horribly litotic entree...

'As many of you know I'm not a very good poet.'

Fuck off...we know you're brill.

Twazzock!

Sadly, that first sentence seems to have tugged this thread down the 'ironic response' road. (I hope you didn't intend that?)

Still, never one for failing to strike whilst the irony is hot, I would suggest...

Avoid bucolic reminiscences without any discernable semblance of humour or insight that offer nothing above and beyond what could be gleaned from readily available, high street vendors of birthday cards, or other anniversaries.

Don't write anything about drug addiction or prostitution...ever.

Never.

Avoid cliches, like the proverbial...except the ones I approve of...you'll know which ones those are, by return of post.

Make it new.

Write something backwards...inside out...try a limerick...fuck a Haiku up the whatsit and then stuff it through a Camel's chuff...

But, most of all, please...edit edit edit edit edit...don't just splurge it out on here.

(I know that's never been your schtick...but, fuck me, the verbal incontinence of some WOLers is...well, words fail me!)

:-)

Oh, and advise me on how to 'make it erotic' without sounding like a pervy tit!

(you can e-mail me privately)
:-)

Jx

'You can e-mail me privately' could be the title of your next 'erotic' poem John.
I don't really see what's wrong with poems on drug addiction. Robert Palmer did well out of a song on it - the Stanglers as well and probably loads of others. The dark side of prostitution would also make a good subject matter, if you were able to handle it subtly.

It is poem after poem after poem about love lost that I find hard to read. Only if it is done in an incredibly different way can it be interesting. There just has to come a point where we start to focus beyond ourselves and look at the bigger picture.

Oh - I don't know ... I've been in love so I can relate to that, whereas I've never eaten my pit pony ... either literally or metaphorically come to think of it.

Personally, I'd say beware of long lists of rules or those who try to enforce them (I'm ducking as I write this!) - it's a good idea to know the rules (whether you're talking about grammar, punctuation ... or whatever - poetically speaking) but if it helps you to say what you want to say - by all means break them.

But please - do it with purpose, not just 'cos you don't know the rule in the first place.But then - I know that you know all that already - being a clever clogs like what you is, innit.
:)

Cx

John mentions the ironic response route that this thread has gone down. I thought maybe it was an ironic question from Paul in the first place, not meaning that he thinks he's a clever-cloggs poet whose work is beyond improvement of course, but that he's maybe not speaking purely for himself but prodding us a bit to see that we all need a bit of help!

You are so right Ann, I was indeed attempting (and failing obviously) to use the personal to be universal.

Well, it's nice to know I've managed to get something right! And it's only 8.15!

I think most of us got that actually - we were just entering into the ironic spirit of things. It's been been fun - summat a bit different - poking fun at another poet with no fear of retribution.

No fear of retribution? Are you mad? Look at the outfit he's wearing! You'll be down on your knees doing penance - you mark my words!
;)
Cx

i tend to write in blocks, paul often which are found by chance.. last year for example, i wrote a very well received poem (not just on here) poem about the closure of manchester central library which has resulted in me writing a series of poems about places and memories.

once they are done, i'll end up following the trail down something else which'll probably happen by chance. it's often the way it goes for me, as i am always looking at ways at expanding what i look for inspiration. i know several poets who constantly write about the same thing (not going to name who) but i am always keen in keep pushing myself with everything i write.. that way it stops things getting boring for me.

hope that helps...

One of the things that helped me improve immensely was writing lyrics for a singer/musician.

Well worth a try, though can be quite humbling at first as someone rips your work apart because it doesn't work for them.

I believe quite a number of well known lyricists experienced this learning curve and came out much better and sharper for it.

I suppose writing a poem specifically for someone else to read might be a similar experience but one I've never tried.

paul

my advice is don't write poetry. just write, if you try and write poetry you will be too concious of being poetic. write something and then shape it, later.

barry

I'm sure I've posted this before and many of you will know it already, but this is my favourite advice on testing whether a poem succeeds...or not.

http://www.poetrybooks.co.uk/poetry_portal/simon_armitage_s_tips_for_poetry

It's a rare poem that passes all the tests. I think I've only ever written two that scrape through the qualification round...of course, many WOLLERS sail through...but many don't even seem to excercise any quality control at all.

See what you think.

:-)

Jx

I used to like Simon Armitage.

That's interesting John. I heard one of Armitages latest poem's on Radio 4 the other day it was awful and failed at least 6 of his own tests.

My wife heard that and said it was lovely. I was going to look it up.

It doesn't mean his 'tests' are invalid though..in fact it suggests the opposite.

If it passed 4 then he's a better poet than I am.



:-)

Jx

...don't answer the front-door whilst holding your knob; both activities invariably interfere with ones ability to construct meaningful sentences and may lead to finger-pointing from your neighbours.

Tried deleting my last comment - it was just a load of twaddle, written in a moment of boredom. It won't let me though - says I'm denied access to newsgroup? I'm hopingit's a blip.

Sorry Isobel but that made me laugh! I'm almost tempted to put something really rude on here then try to delete it and see if the same thing happens to me! Have a good day! x

Knockers :D Great word, one of my favourites, funnily enough ;)

knickers knackers knockers...all apply

only write a poem when you have something to say.

Glad I made someone laugh Ann/Laura!

I guess the same applies to discussing and commenting, Shoeless - I will try to remember that...

It would appear that, so long as you do the opposite of what I suggest, the poetry on here improves.

So....more opacity...we really don't want to understand what you're on about.

Get free....don't bother with any attempts at 'poetry' per se. Just chuck any old words down willy nilly (especially nilly...trust me, it works!)

Cliches...use as many as you can. The more the merrier. Honest, why say anything new when cliches do it for you? A poet would be crazy to ignore all the fabulous phrases that have already been road tested for reliability and instant recognition. Remember...'novelty', it's not big and it's not clever.

Longer. Make them long. Haikus are rubbish, we know that.

Structure...forget it. Anything that looks like it might be 'obeying the rules' is out. There are no 'rules' in poetry...get used to it.

Internal rhyme schemes...don't bother. A good old-fashioned rhyme plonked at the end of every line..or every other line (if you are feeling daring) works a treat every time...you know it makes sense.

That 'last line'...make it deflate the whole poem like a shrinking balloon at a wedding or a rotting bunch of flowers at a roadside shrine. Whatever you do...make it boring, so it doesn't detract from the mastery that preceeds it.

Titles....any old title will do, it doesn't really matter.

Criticism...avoid it like the plague and be rightly sensitive to any whiff of a suggestion that your poem could be improved by better spelling, grammar, or, heaven forfend, poetry. Remember, it's not meant to be helpful, it is a direct attack upon your integrity, life choices and qualities as a human being.

Praise. Lap it up...it makes you a better poet.

:-)

Jx

Theres no such thing as a bad poet.

There are, you know, and naughty ones.

I would agree that there are bad poets Ray - but it is of course subjective. One man's meat is another man's poison. It is nice to think that ever so often you can post a duff one without too much recrimination. Some times it is a question of sharing a mood or feeling with what you hope are friends - the quality can fall a bit by the wayside just for the need to express it. So long as one is not forever posting, I think we should all be granted a little leeway on the quality side.

...and good-looking ones.

Tu n'a pas besoin d'aide, cher Paul. You are already a better poet; though than what or whom, I have no way of telling.
The search for 'better' is always doomed to failure. How will you know when you are better? What specifically will let you know that?
Sorry to sound as though I am taking this too seriously, but, as some of the comments on this thread suggest, we (Write out Loud) perhaps don't do enough either to help folks improve, or to discuss what "better" means.
for some of the wilder (et moins claire) members, quantity is what counts, such that we are now having to decide how to help them with their enuresis. Suggestions on the back of this message please.

Enuresis - love that one - had to look it up mind - might even suggest it for future peotry themed competition... some peeps may have a couple of hundred poems already written on the subject.

I think my opinions on this are well known so maybe no need to say any further. Does enuresis helpe one to write better poetry? Well I've heard that streams of consciousness can sometimes be put to good use...

The peotry was a genuine typo :)

Enuresis? Does that mean some bloggers are taking the p***?
A possible solution? Only allow the last 2 (maybe 3 or 4) of a bloggers poems to be posted in a calendar month, with the remainder to go into a secondary store area

I think encopresis is a bigger problem.

:-)

Jx

Julian et John - vous me faites rire avec ces mots enuresis et encopresis !
Il a raison, Steve...

I love your rire!

(The times I've said that!)

:-)

Jx

A thought for admin and the techies.

I like to go back over poems I have commented on to see what further feedback there has been. That is difficult when there is so much posted and it's hard to remember who I've commented on. If there was some way of bookmarking the ones you've commented on so that you can review the list for the month - that would be so useful.

I'm placing the comment here cos it is more likely to get read since this is the only flourishing thread at the moment.

Enuresis/encopresis - WOL certainly extends the vocabulary...

Maybe we could have it on our profile page where at the moment we have the option of flagging up our favourite poets - which nobody seems to do except Paul! It could be started again at the start of each month.

julian/admin
why does anything need to be stored by the calendar month? would it not be better to work on a rolling 4 week basis?
monthly is ok for stats, but that's all surely?
if we want to back-track on what was posted, or what we've reviewed, i'd be more likely to want to see something i've seen in the last 4 weeks, rather than the information that has fallen off a cliff edge when the month has change.

I think we should start another thread on this - I don't think you need worry about no one commenting, Isobel, as we've all given up on trying to help Paul become a better poet! ;-) (This topic should be on the Site Feedback thread I guess.)(Not the one about making Paul a better poet - oh dear I've lost the plot again!)

I agree Ann - but we seem to have side tracked from that a long way back. No me culpa - either.

As I said else where on the site software discussions:

If you now click on 'My Account' then click on the 'Comments' tab you can now see all the comments you have posted to both blogs & poets as well as the comments people have posted to you.

You're always one step ahead! (Except when it comes to snowboarding!) xx

Please can we have the facility on WOL so we get a nice cup of coffee when we log on in the morning (and a choice of either chocolate or coffee cake please?) Thank you sooo much! ;-)

And a cup of tea and a biscuit in bed first thing in the morning would be good too (no sugar) xx

The deletion function is now working :) Thanks Paul.I've also managed to find all the comments I have made in my account - that is a great facility. Thanks.

ps one very large sugar and a massage please...x