It was only last night while at work that i was chatting to a customer who asked me what my interests are since i don't go out on the proverbial ' Weekend piss up'.
When i told him i enjoy reading my poetry and listening to others who also perform their own stuff he started to ask questions about what makes a poem and how long should it be to call it a poem. I felt a little inadequate in a sense but was able to chat openly about the little i do know and the open mic gigs.
He was genuinely interested in what i had to say and left me saying he'd look up the gig guide to find out more.

So in answer to your question i don't think we should be embarrased. We should be proud of what we do and not afraid to open up to people. It might surprise you to realize or remember that most have read some poetry at some time in their life and it might just generate some interest and more non-poets going to the gigs. This is all part of the reason i believe that performance poetry is about engaging an audience so there is a slot for poetry which tells more than it shows, for the people who are'nt into the finer details and intricacies but are no less interested in what the poetry has to say.
That's not to say intricate poetry shouldn't be performed. Variety is essential for an enjoyable experience and what can turn out to be a fantastic night out at little cost.

no , it wouldnt occour to me to be embarrassed by liking poetry :)

No. I sometimes get embarrassed for the people who don't have poetry in their lives... must be so dull.

I'm rather proud of my poetry - it certainly beats watching telly as a hobby. I find that people are often fascinated by it when I tell them. Many are unaware of what performance poetry is and where it happens. It gives you things in common with people from other art forms. When I went to record my last poem at my son's guitar teacher's house he was really interested and fished out his John Cooper Clarke CD - poetry and music do have a lot in common. The good thing about poetry is that it will always be with you (though that can be a curse at times). It won't fade like beauty or weaken like a voice or become feeble like a body - I think we are all very lucky to have the gift.

I have lots to say Steve, but am too pissed

Poetry has suffered an indignation that seeps through both time and ignorance. It doesn’t help that most people’s exposure to modern literature is restricted to comic books and ‘Nuts’ magazine… and just as this attitude fuels a negative prejudice towards poetry, it’s up to those who feel some semblance of positivity towards the poetic genre to champion its cause.

As a young adult, I never ‘got’ poetry. I would never have even contemplated READING poetry unless it was foisted upon me by an over enthusiastic English teacher - who did his best by picking through the bones of those long since deceased beardy types who, put quite simply, bored (and often still do) the nipples right off a me. However, something eventually happened. I matured. I became less ignorant. I became much more inquisitive. My testicles dropped.

Steve, I’m not sure how old you are - or indeed - if you’re really a ‘Steve’. Nom-de-plumes are not uncommon on this site - but if you feel embarrassed by the mere fact that you subscribe to a ‘top-shelf’ magazine in ‘The World of Poetry’ then don’t worry - these feelings are normal at a relatively young age. Even Stephen Fry states ‘I have a dark secret…’ before going on to explain his reasons for falling in love with poetry - and that for me is another wonder of poetry. You don’t choose poetry… IT chooses you. And while this well soiled cliché often makes me wince - I really believe that it does.

Some people dabble in poetry. Others go on to take it more serious than, say, religion? At the end of the day - who gives a hoot WHAT people think? If poetry works for you, whether you write it as a catharsis or to entertain others - make your poetry work for you. And NEVER - EVER be embarrassed about something that not only works for you, but which allows you to express yourself to others...

Here's to poetry...

Darren, Very well put

hip hip hurrah
hip hip hurrah
hip hip hurrah

win x

Darren makes some interesting and very valid comments. What's to be embarassed about - that you enjoy playing with words to create new ways of expressing yourself? I would be far more embarassed to think that every Sunday I developed a penchant for dressing up in silly clothes and hiiting a a small white ball around a field with a stick, or that on weekends I hitched a tiny "house" to the back of my car and dragged it up and down the motorway!
For me what holds poetry back from the more mainstream arts is the preciousness of some poets. If you want poetry to be mainstream then write for the mainstream - not simply for other poets and the cogniscenti of the literary world to pat you on the head and tell you how cerebral/intelligent/ethereal your work is. Where is the intelligible, accessible relevant poetry for the masses? How is it presented to the masses? What are poets doing to make their work palatable for the average Joe/Jane? Hiding it away in books/open mike nights is hardly going to help. I feel poetry is thriving - but outside the mainstream. What it needs is the imagination and drive to put it much nearer to centre-stage.

Regards,
A.E.

Anthony, the open mic nights are a good way to start to get poetry noticed in the public sector. I know several people who have been impressed when they've accidentally stumbled into a venue just for a pint and ended up staying longer because they've actually enjoyed the performances.
Granted, for the most part they've seen poets with a musical or rant/quick fire approach but they did stay to listen to the others too. Everything has to start somewhere. If poetry became more accessible on say DVD or other, the choice still lies with the purchaser. Sorry but it won't necessarily attract people outside the poetry world. They need to see it ''live'' first.

As for writing poetry for the masses, i'd like to think that's what my own utterings of a poetic nature achieves to a reasonable degree. However there are some who would say it is not poetry.
So who are the ignorant ones?
With respect,
Janet.

Way hay - go for it Anthony - we all deserve the biggest stage we can fall over on.
Darren - so they've really dropped then? I'd been wondering... No nasty return about my baps please cos I'm off on my hols - got my bucket and spade packed and this will be my very last comment. I am looking forward to a climate where it isn't pissing down from dawn till dusk and as for you - WOL is Isobel free for a whole week!!!!!! In fact I'm pressing the x button now - but it's so painful cos I'm an emabarrasing, embarrased not addict.

I wasn't quite quick enough on the button and Janet, our comments crossed.
Anthony, Janet is talking sense - listen to her, she is bang on.
Isobel x

Isobel, our comments crossed but i edited a bit so it's back now.
Enjoy your holiday!!
Wol will survive. :-)

Janet.x

Janet/Isobel (have a great holiday btw - and don't forget my stick of rock!)
I think maybe you are misunderstanding me a little. I don't have anything against open mike nights and the like, and even attend myself. My point is that at the moment that's virtually all there is. The people attending open mike nights are, generally speaking, those who already "get" poetry. They also enjoy meeting and talking with other poets - almost like a kind of secret society. What I would like to see is the opportunity and exposure for good poetry that deserves a wider audience - for those who would never consider poetry to be introduced to it in a non-threatening, not overly-intellectual and appealing (mainstream if you like) way, therefore broadening its appeal. I try to imagine that if I was say a poetry virgin, would an open mike night tempt me in? If it did would I return? My experience of open mike nights is that they are poetry evenings put on by poets for poets and attended by poets - and don't (generally speaking) have a wide appeal to the public.
I feel that there is much that could be done to give poetry a wider appeal and drag it, albeit scratching and biting, out of the library or pub back room. Maybe some might then be a little less embarassed by their clandestine scribings, and actually feel proud of writing poetry.
Regards,
A.E.

I do see where you are coming from Anthony. I understand also that many of the open-mic nights are held in back rooms of pubs and libraries etc..
That's the really good thing about Writeoutloud. It encourages performance at any level, though there are the few who as Steve says that will insist on sneeringly dissing the ''virgins'' and those who join in just for the fun of it.
Not all the wol nights are in back rooms, The Tudor is just one example of a venue with a proper stage area. The downside being that some who aren't really interested in the proceedings often chatter while the poets perform which is off putting for many. It becomes a bit like a social club atmosphere with the ones who want to listen shushing people up.
It is difficult to get the balance right but i still believe it can be done with good organization. At the risk of creating horror amongst the poetry police i ask you:-
How did karaoke become so popular?
Many people discovered they have a voice acceptable for karaoke even though not all will make it as a famous singer. Others have gone on to enter competitions and actually win. Does it matter, as long as people are enjoying what they do in great company with people who have a similar interest?

It isn't my intention to make a mockery of the more serious poets who may or may not aim to be a published poet or indeed those who love the finer details and love the bones of poetry. If the way forward to engaging non-poets is to perform it in a public venue then that's what needs to be done or leave it in a closet to gather dust until the authors pop their clogs only for it all to be possibly out-dated or worse still published after death. Where is the pride in that?

Isn't it the case that we all have an internal speaker and listener? Embarassment is about the speaker in our head saying things which stir up our anxiety and underlying insecurity. But we don't have to listen - which is the liberating thing. We have a choice. We can listen instead to the voice which says that our love for poetry is something life-enhancing we needn't be ashamed of. If someone has a problem with that then they are missing out.

Audiences are silent when musicians are crap
But poets, being poets, have a tendency to clap
Even if what they’ve just heard is claptrap
We’ve all been there, we know, poetic audiences are po
ets

I do not advocate that we continually harass
Those who embarrass
When they step from the arras
And regale us with horrors
They don’t know that they’re paras
ites


They’ve no frame of reference, no guiding star
For they do not read poetry from near or far
And you couldn’t be a mechanic if you’d only seen one car
Well could you
Would you?

They hear your applause and they think they are groovy
It goes to their heads and it makes them quite whoozy
You couldn't be a director if you'd only seen one movie
Well could you
Would you?


Some speak of the ‘vibrancy’ of the North West
I’m not sure if our poets are better or best
They might just be louder than all of the rest
But the reward should be silence
For acts of verse violence

I think Mr Regan opined we should boo
Those who baste our poor ears with sentimental goo
Or use rhyme so heavy they fall right through
The floors of perception
With no ironic connection!

Myself I think things are fine as they are
You can nip to the toilet or even the bar
When your least favourite poet starts to wear out the car
pet


Some poetry is good – there’s no reason to fear it
Just be sure that you know something’s shit when you hear it

Thank you Simon McGonagall
I'll watch you tonight when you're on again

I'm only joshing, Paul. As you know I have the highest regards for all poets and think 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of them are absolute geniuses, without whom the world would be a much poorer place. The doggerel below referred only to the remainder.

Wow! Have you seen what's happened to my speech box? Or am I having an aneurysm?

Super poem, Siren. Very funny. Sure, it's doggerel but it hits a mark.

Hm! Maybe we should all reply to discussions in poetic form, it might help to alleviate lengthy pieces with no paragraphs included. That does happen on here a lot.

I agree Cynthia, a great poem by Siren and there's much truth in it. There is just one question i have Simon. At the risk of creating a list of entries which have already been discussed with no real conclusions.
What does a 'shit' poem consist of?

Whatever your views on the subject are, someone else might like it. At least if you ever go to the bar or the loo if i perform one of mine anywhere you are, i'll know why. :-)
However, if you are actually enjoying the performance, get ready to cross your legs!

Hello Janet.

The poem I posted below is technically poor. It was composed in the time it took me to type it. Any merits it may have as a piece of entertainment probably are due to any residual skill I may have employed in its improvisation. But why the sudden half-rhyme, 'horror', in the middle of three true rhymes? Why the stuttering rhythm? One could argue that I was deliberately writing a bad poem because the piece is about bad poetry but really there is no excuse....

To ask me to give an example of 'shit' poetry is a rather bizarre request. Do you want me to rubbish somebody else personally (which I absolutely do not do) or do you want me to provide examples of my own work? I try not to write shit poetry. I try really hard.

It is a common argument in today's all-comers, everyone's-a-celebrity, super-inclusive society that we are all just as talented as each other and that the only difference is personal taste. This is demonstrably rubbish. Why have certain poets been loved for generations while others have rightly fallen by the wayside? You are certainly free to say that you don't like the work of say, John Keats, but to say he is 'shit' would be completely erroneous. There are more or less accurate signifiers of poetic quality which could be held up in argument against you. Personal taste should only come into it after certain said signifiers have been reasonably fulfilled.

To go into all of these signifiers in detail would require a university module but bad poets often display a limited vocabulary, confused imagery, heavy rhymes unalleviated by irony (the disguise of rhyme is a particularly difficult technical skill which most versifiers don't bother to learn), the use of cliche which displays a lack of knowledge of poetic conventions, obvious emotional manipulation, distraction techniques (stamping on the floor, shouting etc - the poem should shout and stamp for you), and my personal favourite; use of words out of their true context due to simple ignorance of the English language.

Any single one of these failings we have all been guilty of at one time or other, but with bad poetry they tend to come in multiples. Some poets wing it with mitigating circumstances. They might be particularly charismatic performers or sexually attractive; they might have very good timing which brings the best from a bad job; but here's the thing....they will be found out. What fewer and fewer people are willing to recognise is that poetry is a craft. It requires hard work, failure, and the humility to stand on the shoulders of giants, or at least acknowledge that those giants exist.

Some may argue that the above should not apply to 'performance' poetry because it's just a bunch of people getting together in the pub and reciting to each other. I beg to differ. I have friends who absolutely will not attend another open mic night because the quality is generally so poor. That is not good for poetry. People should be encouraged to improve, and then the lot of poetry will improve. Poetry is and always has been an oral form. All poetry is meant to be read aloud. Unfortunately, some people hide behind the label of 'performance' to produce substandard work, regularly, ad infinitum.

Some (on this very site) have argued that I 'piss on performance poetry from a great height' with this attitude. That argument is difficult to sustain when set against the fact that I run one of the longest running poetry events in Manchester. There are dozens of poets out there who first read aloud at Inn Verse. Some of them have since won slams and been published. The standard at Inn Verse is no better or worse than any other event, but we do tend to discuss poetry more, and we do regularly read the works of 'classic' authors.

Hearing someone read in front of an audience for the first time is a wonderful thing. Hearing them read for the sixth time with no improvement is tiresome.

Hi Simon,
thanks for your response.

I think you might have misunderstood my meaning when asking what a 'shit' poems consists of.
I certainly wouldn't expect you to name and shame anyone.
You actually answered it in the early part of your comment with reference to your own posted on this thread.

I feel quite humble in some respects. As you know, i don't have any academical qualifications as far as writing poetry is concerned but i really do try to get it right and do read. I own very few books of poetry but have access to several sites which provide poetry written by new and just about every other poet ever known in great quantity.
I can't say who my favourite authors are but the poetry i do enjoy is the kind which has some effect on me emotionally, whether it makes me laugh or cry or cringe doesn't matter and to be honest the way it's written doesn't matter to me either.I suppose my approach might be very different had i studied as so many on here have but we all begin somewhere and hopefully grow and learn a little more each day.

I can be opinionated (and i know you weren't making personal accusations by the way)
but i don't consider that a fault because i am prepared to listen to other peoples opinions too. I just feel that performance poetry in the main when performed in a venue which is accessible to non-poets is often best received by non-poets when it is more direct.
I'm only just getting around to visiting more poetry events and do like a mix between cozy and others like slams.
However, to get back to the original topic of embarrassment, i do become a little embarrassed because i cannot hold my own in a technical poetry conversation. For the most part i've discovered that most people accept me as i am and know that i am willing to learn just so long as they are willing to assist me in developing my own style and not a style belonging to another poet.
There are so many contradictions it is difficult to fathom sometimes what's right and what is too much or not enough.

Thanks for your intelligible input.
Janet.x

Hi Janet,

I've just read over my post and realised its tone is at best pompous, and at worst accusatory. I didn't mean it to be so. The 'you's in the post could be read more accurately as 'one's, if you know what I mean. I was not replying to you personally but to the arguments implicit in your response.
My intention in this area is not to discourage people from writing and reading their poetry to others, but to attempt to encourage a little more thought on what is, after all, the oldest literary form. I know some successful performance poets (by which I mean those who get individual bookings and have collections published with ISBN numbers and whatnot) who consider any technical knowledge of poetry to be a hindrance and this attitude unfortunately filters down to those who are just starting out. Knowledge never hurt anyone. It is a position of strength to work from.

There is a tendency to forget the fact that poetry in all cultures began exactly as we are now proceeding; with people making statements to each other in a form of language which embraces grace, elegance and wit. Whenever one hears a poet one likes, these qualities are displayed in some measure. This applies to even the rantiest, shoutiest, most scabrous versifiers on the planet. Poetry is about language, whether that language be demotic or 'cultured'.

Without trying to seem as though I know your own mind better than you do, I would suggest that your emotional engagement with certain poems is brought about by the technical arrangements of the words employed. Emotion does not pass unfiltered from one human being to another. It must be transmitted through processes of communication. Poetry manipulates language in order to express emotional (or other) truths. Consider the following statement....

He died.
I cried.

Technically, that is a poem. It is syllabically and metrically regular, it rhymes, and it expresses a statement. It is also pretty much all any decent elegy might say in essence, boiled down to its constituent parts. But it does not work as poetry because there is no elegance, no imaginative use of language, no angular approach to the subject. It would not affect anyone emotionally because it does not set the mind off on interesting tangents, or relate emotion to experience. In a real elegy all these qualities are achieved through technical means, whether we perceive them consciously or not. Form is absolutely essential to poetry.

Thanks for the discussion, Janet. Sorry to go on with myself so much, it's like a nervous tic with me.

Si

XXX

Hi Siren,

I enjoyed reading your recent postings on this topic, and I have to say that by and large I agree with you. Whilst not having your obvious academic background I have always found it helpful to try to further my knowledge.

Poetry, and our approach to it, should really be no different from any other subject. To progress any further than the absolute basics requires at least a rudimentary understanding of what we might aspire to, i.e. "the rules." Most of us will probably never achieve anything beyond the pats on the back administered by our peers, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't aim higher.
There seem to many out there today who think that what qualifies them as a poet is to able to string a few words together any-old-how and arrange them in a fashion that resembles the structure of a poem they might have once seen.

Many never seem to have read any poetry of worth at all - or at least never recognised it if they have. I enjoy poetry, both the reading and my attempts at writing. What does make me cringe sometimes is the mutual backslapping of the ill-informed, simply to stoke up their own fragile egos. We don't all want or need to become experts, but common courtesy for the subject ought to dictate that we at least have some regard for the basics before we start to dabble.

Otherwise the "Poetry Police" will come and get you . . .

Regards,

A.E.

Hi Siren,
i do realize your post was only in response to my post and therefore not personal. I tend also to 'speak' in my own voice when writing and recognize myself in others posts which is the reason for ''I'' and ''my'' in my replies etc..
It's natural, it's a discussion and what's more, having met you albeit briefly, i don't think of you as being pompous etc..
I learn much from the discussions here and take on board anything which i feel is relevant to me regardless of who wrote it.
So please don't stop being yourself.
I enjoy reading your input though i can't say i will always understand it for reasons previously mentioned.

Hi Anthony,
your words make a lot of sense but i beg to differ when you say learn the basics before dabbling in writing poetry.
The majority of people i know who write or aspire to write poetry began by using rhyming couplets and probably forced some rhyme at the same time. Yes, me too!
Once it becomes clear that poetry is what we'd like to write, we decide to look at the many rules and variations possible to vary style and content etc...
Believe me when i say ( and i do include myself in being one of the people your response is aimed at) i discovered a link here on wol which took me to a site that has all the technical terms and general info on how to write a poem. I even wrote a poem about it.
I learned a lot from it but often post a new poem too early in haste to join in with other regular bloggers. Guilty!
I write because i enjoy writing. I stay on wol because i enjoy the community relations and some of the feedback as well as some of the critique. I'm too sensitive to some too. Guilty!
This is not an excuse, it's an explanation. If i had more time to study the intricacies etc.. i would go to a creative writing class or other. However, i work in excess of 48 hours a week, plus my spiritual work, not to mention the time i spend on sites doing my spiritual work, Time on here, writing when i can and now just a little time a couple hours a week on Facebook keeping up with a few dear friends i don't see anywhere near enough. Guilty!

Please bear in mind that my post is my post and only refers to the parts of yours and Simons posts which i feel are relevant to me personally. I feel it might provide some idea for the reasons i often get it wrong poetically but i enjoy my life anyway for the most part. :-)

Janet.xx

Siren, I don't know you personally yet (I think), but I do so admire and enjoy your contributions to the discussions. I am presuming that you are Simon Rennie, only by contraction of your two names. If you are not, would you identify yourself?
I am hoping to take part in your Open Mic programme this autumn. I look forward to it.

The problem with learning the rules before you start, as opposed to "as you're going along", is that you might never start.

Now maybe some would say that's a good thing... but...

a woman of my aquaintance, who's probably in her sixties, has just written her first poem, with a little help from another poet friend of mine. It's not a great poem; but it expresses an emotion and commerates the mother who had only recently died. It won't win any prizes; but it does the job for which it was written.

And may be she will go on to write more and better poems; but if she doesn't, so what? She has expressed something of her feelings on paper, and that's enough for now. That's often how people start; it's certainly my experience of prison writing, for instance. If they get hooked on writing poetry, then it's time to start learning and developing, and that takes a lifetime. You never stop learning.

Learn as you're going along. You don't have to do a degree in poetics to write poetry.

Hoorah for Steven Waling!

Hi,
I admit to being a WOL addict and read with interest all posting,sometime responding when I feel the need. For once I agree with Steven Waling,one has to start somewhere and I too feel that writing is the way forward .Developing and revising poetry is a joy, a learning experience that has seen me evolving into a fully committed poet who loves reading all forms of poetry. I know what poems I like best,there is a poem for everyones taste.
" One can not please all the people all of the time. But to please some of the people some of the time, is well worth the effort.

The only thing I'm getting embarrassed about now is the spelling of embarrassment. Can anybody help?

I could. You're right with two 'r's' and two 's's' and two 'a's'; but I don't interfere with spelling on either the comments or the poems. I could live with the comments written hastily, but the spelling errors in the page poems are really off-putting. Especially 'you're and 'your', 'who's' and 'whose', and other primary school stuff. Who cares if it's recited (who knows?), but with postings it's just plain annoying.

You're braver than I am.

Perhaps the question heading this thread was intended to introduce a composite neologism.

Does anyone else get em-bare-assed by the whole notion of poetry?

mmm yes I have been bare arsed reading poetry on many an occasion. Only in the privacy of my own front window though, obviously

No I don't really get embarassed by poetry,rather I enjoy seeing people's reactions when I tell them what my secret hobby is,then they get embarassed and a hush falls over the room.

i don't get imbarrassed but i tend to keep it to myself. Most of the people i know aren,t into it, so its not as if they want to swap lines with me. But i meet people who read aswell and i,m glad to tell them. Can imagine it would be more imbarrassing for a man to talk about.

Funny JD!!! : )

Sorry Siren but the introduction of 'neologism' killed the joke quicker than a 90 year old nun saying her rosary!

OUCH! good come-back Steve!!!

lol

Tommy

'Funny JD!!! : )'

That's what you said, Tommy. And you said it after John's post, which was in turn a response to mine. Pray tell me how I can kill a joke before it has been made?

Now listen here Siren....! yer what?......ah ...no I was referring to YOUR joke...your protogolism negated your syllogism which became a redundant.........thingy......LISTEN SIREN I'LL have no more of it! whatever it was has to stop...soon...please...now where was I?

Believe me Steve misspelling causes me absolutely no offence, I'm not even too sure I've spelled misspelled right. I'm not too sure either about the relativity of educational enlightenment you refer to. I don't see the education industry as a bastion of liberalism these days but perhaps you were educated in some other golden age.The only reason misspelling in this instance causes embarrassment (of a minimal nature it must be said) is that Write out Loud is an internationally accessed site with an editorial standard. Who does it think it is with misspelled banner headlines, The Grauniad?

I think it would be a good idea to have a discussion thread entitled 'Crimes against spelling, punctuation and grammar' - one that we could all add to and learn from.
Very many of us manage to pass through the educational system without being taught some of the basics and looking at the standard of new teachers coming up, I think it will get worse.
I didn't learn the difference between its and it's until I was 25 and it was pointed out to me by somebody rather senior who I worked with - I never made the mistake again. I didn't learn how to spell separate until I separated. I lose count of the number of people who can't spell definitely.
As Cynthia says - it is easy to mis-spell when we are commenting cos we are all in a rush but hopefully some effort should be made in our poetry. I never like to comment on such things cos it undermines the poet and at the end of the day the poetry is more important - but it does distract.
Just how do you learn/teach without being offended or causing offence? Let's have a communal learning thread...

Good idea Isobel - go ahead and try it. One cautionary note - sometimes deliberate misspelling is part of the poem, intended by the poet. Words may be changed, merged, very new or just plain invented. So spellcheck won't always give the final answer.

Have just checked and 'spellcheck' passes spellcheck.

Ok - will put one up - but not tonight Josephine - cos I'm too tired. Need to put some jottings down and think about it - will probably put one up at the week-end - unless anyone else wants to do one that is. I think Anthony and Cynthia would probably make a good job of it.
I must admit - I am not a great fan of spell check. Too often it gives you American spellings or fails to pick up on things that can be spelt in 2 different ways. Complimentary and complementary have completely different meanings as do lots of other words; give me a big old battered dictionary any day.

Not me. I'm still too new. And I've ruffled enough feathers already.

Battered dictionary? Makes a change from Mars Bars

To be honest I think I can live with a few spelling/grammatical/punctuation errors. I certainly make enough of my own. The rules for punctuation are not really applicable to poetry are they? As long as I can understand what the author means, and don't have to re-read several times to understand a poem. If flouting convention (creatively) adds something to a poem - as long as it's done intentionally, and with knowledge of the convention you're flouting, then I'm all for it. If a poem is littered with unintentional errors then I'm not sure what to think. It may be the result of lots of factors; laziness, carelessness, a lack of educational opportunity, dyslexia, immaturity etc. None of these things ought to stop someone having a voice or expressing their creativity. I would much rather see a good poem with a few mistakes than a poor poem presented perfectly. Knowing all the rules of something doesn't necessarily make one an expert in its execution. Style over substance? Give me substance (style can be polished) every time.

Regards,
A.E.

I would agree with you Anthony - very many brilliant people suffer from degrees of dyslexia. My mum is intelligent but can't spell for toffee. For some curious reason she love crosswords. Can't tell you how frustrating it is trying to complete one that she has started! Should I just forget about starting that thread then?

Anthony, please forgive me because i might have misunderstood some of your intentions in your latest post. I do feel you contradict yourself sometimes. With the greatest of respect of course.

Isobel, i think it's a good idea to set up a new thread along the lines of punctuation and grammar. I'm often accused of grammatical mistakes in my writing and up to date not one person has enlightened me as to what those mistakes are and how to adjust them for improvement. So although i might not add my own posts to the thread, i will certainly read and look for examples of good and bad grammar.

How about someone writing a short piece with bad grammar and punctuation then posting the same piece with the necessary corrections to improve the over-all effect.
Any takers?

I feel awful by what I said before. Of course, I could help. If anyone wishes to contact me on my Profile I would most gladly give a few spelling/grammar pointers of those tricky word pairs of sound alikes.

Janet - I'm sorry if I have confused you via contradiction. I know that in the past I have posted comments which seem critical of - well, almost everything I guess! I won't ever offer any kind of criticism directly where I feel it might not be welcome, but if I feel that I might be able to help someone (not that I'm better qualified than anyone else - just willing and hopefully objective and impartial) I am always glad to give what are, hopefully, constructive comments.

I enjoy words, and poetry and sharing thoughts and ideas on these subjects with other interested people. I still count myself as little more than a beginner when it comes to writing, and hope to learn at every opportunity. There are things that irk me in poetry, hence my "crimes against poetry" thread. This is purely a matter of personal taste - just as it might be in music (I don't much care for rap, country and western, hip-hop) etc. I hope that this was taken in the light-hearted spirit in which it was posted - and as a device to stimulate debate. I would hate to put myself forward as any kind of authority - on anything, let alone poetry.

I do realise however, that there are those who are coming fresh to poetry, just like we all did once. I wouldn't like to think that what might be seen as petty criticisms of spelling/grammar/punctuation would deter them from writing about things that they feel are important, or stifling both their self-esteem and their egos before they have had the chance to get started.

I would be happy to help in any way that I can to nurture and encourage fresh talent - and to revisit the many mistakes I've made myself.

Go for it Isobel!

Regards,
A.E.