A trawl through the poetry blogs for a month shows an incredible lack of feedback on members poems.

A further analysis shows that comments tend to be "cliquey" (is that a word?) with the same few people being polite to their friends, mates and acquaintances.

Since becoming WOL's meeter and greeter I have become more and more aware of how little encouragement we give to new poets on the site.

Unashamedly members do want critique in order to feel encouraged enough to write more and better poetry.

Furthermore, I wonder whether as a total package set up to serve all elements of the poetry scene WOL is falling down on this vital element of poetry development.

From the most recent outpourings concerning the closure of the Tudor hotel, I glean that a significant element of the success and subsequent devotion to the place was engendered by poeple's support for one another.

Statistically, we have many members whom after a brisk start to their WOL life, quickly fall by the wayside and stop posting.

How much of this is due to our lack of recognition for their work?

Perhaps we need a new members "mentor" who comments on new postings for two to three months or so.

Alternatively, we could all take a new member under our wing and give really constructive feedback on a one-to-one basis. I personally would prefer this option.

I post this thread in order to raise the awareness of what I perceive to be a big failure in what is otherwise a fantastic resource for all poets, either performance or page.

There, I've shaken the tree, what are you going to do about it?

An interesting post.
Poetry is, of course, all things to all people
and there is no real advantage in commenting
on something unless it either appeals in some
way or seems to demand an alternative
viewpoint...either about its content or its
presentation. Having been accused of being a
"troll" (a less insulting term than many I can
think of in a past public service career), it
is easy to think that many are put off making
any comment which may be seen as actually
"critical", whatever the good intent behind
it. A silence may be thought easier:
better not to give offence (and let the poet
carry on gathering confidence and experience
in the meantime). Surely, the availability of
the outlet as a public "platform" is its own
reward. The plaudits and the brickbats are
secondary. Are WOL contributors too
fragile to "take it" unless "it" is praise
from like minds? Are they merely being
polite elsewhere - OR perhaps not caring enough
about the subject matter to spend time making any observation about it? After all, as I mentioned previously: poetry is all things to
all people.

These days (when so much variety of both form and theme is allowable in poetry it would be very good if we could be a bit more robust with each other. But this is England, and I fear that the `manners` thing will usually prevent this.

In the meantime I agree most with M.C`S. point about the site being both an outlet and platform to `show your stuff`.

Sadly the stats don't support that.

It's a tricky one and you go through times in your life when you have more time to comment than others. If you're pushed for time, then you are going to comment on poets that you are familiar with and where you want to maintain that link.

I don't see that as cliquiness cos anyone who joins the site can make the effort to make friends and find poets whose work they enjoy.

I do think that you get back what you put in. If you comment a lot, then you are bound to have people take a look at your stuff. I would never join a site expecting a lot of attention before giving it myself though...

I'd agree with Steve that we can't be too prescriptive. Proper critique takes time and effort and it's always subjective. How it's received depends on how tactfully it's offered - and whether the poet ever wanted it in the first place.

Thanks for raising this topic, Graham. It's an important one, and you're right to do so. Certainly, when I joined WOL back in late 2009 I was encouraged and pleased by comments, which kept me posting poems and gave me a sense of the warmth of the community of this site. I tried to seek out the poems of those who had commented on mine, to get some idea of the person, and also to look at and appreciate their poems as well. I do also agree that we shouldn't be prescriptive about it, I don't think that would work. But I sense that as meeter and greeter you also seem to be taking on the role of a kind of WOL ombudsman, Graham, which is very welcome. Do keep flagging up these kinds of things! Thanks, Greg

Somewhere the word prescriptive seems to have crept in the conversation. I didn't mean to sound prescriptive when I was making suggestions about mentoring etc, just trying to think of ways that existing mature members could encourage the newer ones to keep blogging and feel part of the site instead of disappearing into the fathomless pool of silent members that we have.

Yes, we have been here before - many times. Tread carefully would be my caution. Often when people say they would like feedback what they actually mean is they would like "positive" feedback. Anything mildly critical or suggesting possible improvement is either ignored or met with hostility. I have never held myself up as any kind of authority on the literary musings of others, but, when asked, and prompted to do so, have given my opinions (and, that's all they ever can be, for any of us.) For myself I can say I find critique/feedback on my own scribbles very worthwhile and would thank anyone who has taken the time and trouble to offer comments of any description. I am equally aware that this doesn't hold true for everyone. As others have intimated already, there are a myriad reasons why people post their work on WOL - you are all familiar with these motivations. There is nothing to stop anyone requesting feedback at the moment - in big fat CAPITALS on their blogged poem if they wish. Perhaps though, for newbies not used to critique (formal or otherwise) this might be better done by using the WOL inbox facility - at least until they develop their confidence and the ability to discern what is and isn't useful.

Regards,
A.E.

You do 'make friends' with certain persons, mostly because you admire their individual works and come to expect a continuing standard that justifies the time it takes to read and comment. That is not 'clique-y'; it is earned respect.

I do try to explore the contributions of new members. I am positive, perhaps with a soft suggestion, or even two. Some great names have dropped away this past year, having posted work that genuinely excited my interest, and to which I responded enthusiastically. Who knows why they left? What exactly did they expect from us? Is there a very real age-gap developing?

IMO, some stuff is just plain poor. I really dislike the site used only as a storage notebook for half-baked ideas that show little or no 'work' at all. Until a little poetic discipline is practised, why should I be bothered?

In spite of that comment, I really bend over backwards to be encouraging.

I was surprised to read the original post on this discussion, because I have been thinking recently that there has been more comment and interaction over the last month or so than there has been for a long time!

Agree with every point Cynthia raises above.

Also agree that you cannot make people interact, and that you must tread carefully on occasion. What gets my back up is when some poets don't give constructive criticism so much as re-write whole verses or poems!! It's not the original writer's idea any more then is it? Suggesting improvements is one thing - re-writing is another.

Laura, I've had experience of receiving virtual 're-writes' of the whole or the part, but, honestly, I found most of them very informative and well worth considering. I don't say I always did as suggested, but I think I have expanded my 'style' by being open to other ideas about how to treat/develop a subject. I never felt threatened, or diminished, just encouraged.

I do think that when we all proudly announce that we would like "constructive"criticism, perhaps we don't really mean it.

Laura says she dislikes anyone re-writing any of her work, but that is a form of CC as well, just another way of coming at a subject.

I will never change a piece of work following publication on WOL but may very well take notice in future efforts.

On the mentoring issue, I suppose what I was envisioning was that some of the very fine poets on here would make great sponsors of those just getting going into poetry. I'm surprised there are not more keen to put themselves forward to give it a go.

Comment and criticism (C&C) take a variety of forms.
A poem's content is a personal matter and can
indicate a particular mindset, both of which
may encourage a reaction from a reader. It is
this aspect of C&C that can cause ill-will
through misunderstanding of the intention
behind the C&C.
I have been accused of being a "troll", merely
because I sought to show that the content of a
protest poem had been overtaken by arguably
more serious matters of the same type of subject that warranted equal attention but weren't getting it.
A common cause for C&C might be the basic
spelling and punctuation errors in many posts. But then one might come over as a
nosy pedant and alienate merely through good
intentions. Perhaps poetry posts should
have a WOL "editor" to check for that aspect
of things in whatever posts contain these
avoidable errors, some of which might be
"typos" and the fault of too much haste and
not enough proof reading prior to posting.
I have managed to correct some of my own on
a 2nd or 3rd read of a poem and save myself some personal embarrassment, but would be
happy to put right those I may have missed that are pointed out correctly.

Making a wrong assumption there Graham - I wasn't referring to my own work.

I have welcomed constructive crit in the past. I have also offered it based on several years of experience and what might sound better, avoid repetition. Complete rewrites don't actually qualify as CC in my book. It's simply a rewrite.

Laura that is my point. Sorry for assuming you meant your own work, but someone offering another way in which a poem can be laid out, restructured etc is a form of CC.

I guess my overarching point is that the more experienced poets can often see glaring errors in others work (when sometimes we cannot see our own) and do not feel that it is our place to point them out.

Mentoring would do that without prejudice.

I agree with Isobel that you usally want to comment on poems of those who you have contected with. Again I do agree that new poets have to make the effort to establish a relationship with other authors, by commenting and providing feedback. (Like myself I've only been on WOL for a few days)
In a Community like this if someone does comment take the time to respond and will allow people to establish that communication.
Thanks agin for having me here!

Heartily agree with Laura "...It's not the original writer's idea any more then is it? Suggesting improvements is one thing - re-writing is another" Amen to that.

No-one is 'ganging up' on Laura, Anthony. Certainly not me; she would come out swinging with such scathing commentary of her own that I would be fair 'cut-to-pieces.' And enjoying every minute.

I have two poems on WOL where I offered alternative versions (after some sage advice) to test readers' reactions - and opinion split almost exactly down the middle. It was a good exercise, and made some salient points for me about my own work.

Huh? Is there a post missing here, that you are referring to Cynthia re the 'ganging up' comment?

We disagree on re-writes - there we go, it's not a world-changing thing is it? Not much point in continuing that line, except to say that in all my time here, I have only ever seen re-writes done by male writers, never female. Make of that what you will.

Bloody hell Laura!

"Not much point in continuing that line, except to say that in all my time here, I have only ever seen re-writes done by male writers, never female. Make of that what you will".

I wonder what response I'd have got if I'd said that in reverse. I'm surprised at you!

Crikey!

Why are you surprised? It's an observation.

Have you ever seen re-writes done by female writers?

An observation holding a stick of dynamite surely?

Is it? Why is it?

HAVE you seen re-writes done by any female writers - I'm genuinely interested.

On re-writes:
I remember a poster on the noticeboard
of an East End (Poplar, London) church
years ago which carried the thought provoking message -
Those who never change their minds never
correct their mistakes.

Come on Laura, do you honestly think anyone has the time (or inclination) to trawl through a mass of poems in order to prove/disprove your point?

It was the pure semantics of your comment (make of that what you will) that seemed to me a "light the blue touch paper and retire" sort of comment.

So I'll have to fall on my sword and do the gentlemanly thing and withdraw. No hard feelings.

I wasn't exactly asking you to trawl through Graham. I asked if you had seen any. If you HAD, surely you would remember that, in light of this discussion. I would trust you enough not to make something up, as I am trusting you to believe that I am not pulling that observation out of thin air.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by 'it was the pure semantics' but I think your reaction is really interesting. You've clearly pulled some meaning from it that has ignited you a little.

Withdraw from what?

How absolutely hilarious this delicious turn of tempo! Laura, I certainly took your statement as a valid observation within a recent time period of two-three years. IMO,there is nothing more charming than a ruffled male.

Cynthia, I've been married for 43 years and have had my feathers ruffled a few times and I most certainly know when to throw in the towel. At least that way one doesn't get beaten senseless. Glad you enjoyed the spat!

FOLKS,
On the subject of women-poets (in fact women
anything) ever doing `re-writes`(changing their minds) I`m staying out of that one.

On the subject of re-writes generally: twice - at least - repetitions in my poem have been pointed out to me...both were absolutely correct. One I changed, the other (for what was to me a `musical` reason) I didn`t. I was grateful to both for reading the poem and making a valid point about it.

A poem is `about` what it says, and how it says it. The only honest way to comment on either is to be able to analyse what is written down in front of you - both of the commentators did so.

We should be (politely) a bit more robust with each other. There is a difference between a polite poetry site - and a mutual admiration society...Sincerity.

The word "reasoning" comes to my mind when
addressing the topics of comment and its
bedfellow: criticism.
Content is a subjective thing and may attract
a different/opposing viewpoint which may combine both comment and criticism. This is
to be expected & as long as the view employs
reasoning, there can be no excuse to
respond with resentment and rudeness (R&R). Presentation is another matter. It can be
lacking in grammatical or structural terms,
thereby inviting a response.
There is no justification for posters on WOL
responding in either category with R&R...
particularly as it is not compulsory to
accept a response from any other WOL poster.

I think if a poem was so bad that you felt the need to re-write it, what the hell would be the point in commenting on it, other than to prove your own superiority?

On the other hand, it's very tempting to suggest changes when there's just a couple of words that spoil it for you - or a layout that could enhance the poem.

I have dipped in and out of WOL for a while now and as yet have refrained from commenting on this particular thread, but I am perplexed by some of the comments made by seemingly sensible people.
All writers and poets need (if not crave) recognition from their contemporaries, even if it is in the form of criticism or rewriting suggestions. They seek this for their own reasons: be it encouragement, kudos or simply guidance on how to improve in quality or productivity.
Without the input of others, however qualified, a writer has a very lonely task. If they feel unworthy due to a lack of feedback they are less likely to continue to present their work. I have requested comments and criticism within my profile and do try to comment on fresh blogs when I can.
I do not have all the answers, but surely we are talking about a two-way street here. If someone spends the time to read your 'stuff', is it not just good manners to check out their writing and leave comments? I have apparently had over 13,000 visits to my profile, according to the counter, but I know without checking that less than 1% have left comments - that can not be right!

agree with rob, to a degree.
i find it difficult to comment on poetry i do not enjoy. there are only a small amount of commenters anyway, so 'cliques' are bound to happen. i enjoy certain peoples styles, therefore i comment on that. anything vaguely political or kissy and im gone, i cant comment because i dont enjoy it.
the majority of new poems from new poets appearing are not stuff i enjoy. id be forcing myself to comment, which is not something i want to do.
on the flipside, i enjoy getting comments and probably wouldnt bother posting if i didnt think anyone was reading. i do try to comment on different peoples poems, but a lot of it just doesnt appeal. a dilemma!

I have a collection of poems, titled "The P.O.T". Below are excerpts of the work.

Preface

The P.O.T (Poured Out Thoughts) is analogous to water being poured out from a pot to the ground. Here, water is a representation of thoughts and the ground represents the peoples’ minds.

It is a collection of poems that draws its thoughts from the interests of inspiration, motivation, spirituality, personal issues, nature and mankind. Though, The P.O.T, consisting of long and short poems, portrays ‘cut-across-all-ages’ consequences, the thoughts about love and nature are being poured out on the grounds (minds ) of nature lovers and readers of (true) love.

The collection of poems has also two ‘poetic slices’---The Broken Mirror--- as found in the fiction piece, The Broken Mirror---written by the author. It has the Nigerian and foreign versions.

The thoughts poured out touch on the states people of all ages get to find themselves. From school children to the working population---to the entire population---including the ‘senior age’ persons, it mirrors their pursuits, pains, frustrations, pitfalls, discouragements, questions but tries the possibility of hope.

The eleven-poem piece has some of its sub-titles excerpted from the works of the author. For instance, “Out of the Box”, “If:”, “Heralding God’s Magnificence”, “See Life In Your Own Way” and “Dad Loves Me” extracted from his works: Talking Thoughts (Non-Fiction), comprising of “Out of the Box” and “If:”, The Christian Matrix (a collection of Christian stories), as having “Heralding God’s Magnificence”, “See Life In Your Own Way” and “Dad Loves Me” as found in The World We Live In (a short story collection).

The Making of self in the light of the tree

I’m Rooted in Self-discovery

I’m Stemming out in Self-realization

I’m Branching forth in Self-Dynamism

I’m Leaving in the process of Self-completion

I’m Flowering in Self-propagation

I’m Fruiting in Self-Productivity

True Poetry

True poetry is brought forth when there is a ‘Pouring Out (of) Emotions Through Real Yearning’. In other words, the ‘Pouring Out of Emotions Through (the) Reality (of) Yearning’ defines True poetry

Mr. Ben

Table of Contents

A) Out of the Box

B) See Life In Your Own Way

C) Heralding God’s Magnificence

D) We Are Children

E) Family

F) Nature’s Blessings

G) The Other Side of Nature’s Consciousness

H) Save Mankind

I) The Faces of L.O.V.E

J) Dad Loves Me

K) If:

Poetry Slices

Author Bibliography

(A)

Out of the Box

Out of the Box

I was lost in the box called life…In it,

(I)

I wanted learning

but my education was deafening

I wanted truth

but my reality faked its root

I wanted to buy the right counsel

but my mind controller got me its left sell

I wanted to be free

but my pursuit turned a tree

I wanted information

but my vision brought me deformation

I wanted wellness

but my state showed illness

I wanted food

but my money was rude

I wanted a wife

but my life mirrored a knife!

I wanted the clarity of pleasure

but my naked eyes saw the dullness of pressure

I wanted to live forever

but my death was to question For Ever

I wanted peace

but my perception reflected unease

(II)

I wanted to know about people

but my understanding was a fumble

I wanted to be everyone’s friend

but my experience was the pal’s end

I wanted to be rich

but my efforts didn’t catch a fish!

I wanted direction

but my limitation was the obstruction

I wanted to know the ‘why’ to everything happening

but my answer had to cry to all prevailing

I wanted to invest in good

but my previous return showed “fooled”

I wanted to scream because of pains

but my calmness showed up because of gains

(III)

I wanted people to hear my voice

but my quest was a noise

I wanted money

but my struggle was funny!

I wanted to know why the world was divided

but the response was: “Its control is what’s favorite”

I wanted to know what happens after death

but my physical life told me I was on earth

I wanted to tell people my experience

but my words failed me in their presence

I wanted to know if I knew what I know

but my existence replied with a “NO!”

I wanted to find myself through my works

but my inner-self whispered: “If you want to find yourself, then think Out Of the Box!”

Youtube Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRVOJ6fpgZs

(B)

See Life In Your Own Way

(i)

Deceptions try permeating my sub-conscious like a virus

Ugly events want to make me dance bad circus

I choose to see myself as the citrus

That grows in the field of peace

Never caught up by the weeds of disease

I’m hooked with creativity through my ability

To express my service to humanity

I see life my own way

Decided not to be in dis-array

It doesn’t matter the name;

Whose distraction is giving him the fame

For I know that’s his game

(ii)

I’m out for the money

but not down with the honeys

because they are monkeys

pretending to be like good mummies

I’m ahead of my time like time

That’s why you don’t see me all the time

That’s the way I see it…My own way

So, see life in your own way!

(C)

Heralding God’s Magnificence

Lord, thank you for grace

For you are with me always as I run my race

Inspite of my nakedness, you shield me with your lace

By faith, I can move mountains

For you’ve made me an ace

Christ is my base

I can’t be shaken by life’s rays

For in God’s presence, I’m more than all mays

And in Christ, I put my enemies at infinite bays

The Lord God is in charge of my case

For His word is greater than what anybody says

His death on the cross is greater than all my big pays

So, I’ve chosen to serve Him, Grace!

I look forward to hearing from you.

Below are my contact details and that of the work (for interested publishers):

Name: Ihekuna Chimezie Benedict (Mr. Ben)

Email: mrbenisreal@gmail.com

Phone: +2348062162220.

Pages: 23

Word Count: 2, 468 words

Maybe the reason is that not many people really read them.. Sad enough but it seems to be true reason. Another possible reason is that none feels the necessity to write something. If you write an encouraging message to community members. I believe this can improve the situation.
Jack,
http://pimion.com writer.