I often wonder why various people post their poems. What's the motive? Where's the gain? I've no great desire to be a "published poet", I simply want to write well/better for the hell of it.So I post mine because I'm interested to hear what was thought to be good or bad, what folk felt worked, what didn't.If people make suggestions how a poem might be improved, so much the better.There's no obligation to heed the advice. There is such a thing as constructive criticism and it can be learnt.It isn't difficult to be polite.Of course, if someone is arrogant and condescending by habit then that attitude will be brought to bear both in the pub and in the online poetry forum. It's no reason to discourage constructive criticism.
Much as I've grown fond of WOL -and I really have - there is little criticism of any kind and it does sometimes verge upon mutual back-slapping.One thing that I think would improve WOL more than anything else is this: at present a poem rolls out of sight and mind inexorably, regardless of its quality or the interest it arouses. Two or three days is the maximum shelf-life for almost all poems. This isn't conducive to anything but superficial engagement, in my view. Many poetry sites have a mechanism whereby a comment on a poem automatically promotes it to the top of the reading list once more. Thus the poems kindling the most interest remain in view longer, there is greater scope for feedback(in both directions) and, one hopes, learning. It may also be the case that fewer poems are posted as a consequence.Generally speaking, poems(almost all poems)would stick around longer so those inclined to post with great regularity would perhaps feel less inclined. Having said all that, I reflect upon my opening statement: why do people post their poems here? This may not be the sort of thing that the majority want at all!So whaddya think?

People post for various reasons, some want constructive feedback, others want recognition for their brilliance, and others post purely as a cathartic release. It is sometimes difficult to determine their reasons unless you know a poet - what their personal intentions are. I believe that if you put it out there - you should be able to take whatever comes.
I personally hold off on any criticism unless I know the person well, and then I e-mail instead of posting it for all to see, because I understand the extreme sensitivity of poets.

I saw this email idea on the other thread (the one that spawned this one). Most of us on here don't show our email addresses. I don't. So it is not an option in most cases. A good idea if you can use it of course.

I don't think I really know why I post and have an additional Blog. None of my family or close circle of friends even know that I write poetry anyway. I suppose it's like paper boats/messages in bottles perhaps?

Interesting views / ideas. I post because 1) Interested in feedback / suggested improvements etc (which have genuinely been useful) 2) To be part of an online and then by meeting poeple at gigs a real poetry community 3) To share ideas and make contact with other poets, this for me has led to some interesting places. 4) To read other poets output.

Anne your idea of comments making the blog posts jump to the top is interesting. What would WOL look like I wonder and what would this community feel about it?

Win

My visits to the site tend to be sporadic. That's how my writing is too. I might not write anything at all for several months then one day I find myself writing something that resembles a poem then more follows.
I post to share my stuff with other readers/users and of course to receive some feedback. I would be lying if I said otherwise :-)

In the early days I have to admit to being too close to it and couldn't accept how much editing it needed to create a greater impact.
That attitude has changed now to a more agreeable state where I can stand away from it and look again based on the feedback it receives. Have a play around with it and edit accordingly.

It can be rather difficult feeling that you are being treated like a child when you are a fully grown adult and sometimes (in my particular case) I reverted to reacting like one. I'm sure others have done the same if they are honest, not all I might add ;-)
Having said that, there has also been times when there has been a distinct whiff of people taking the Michael and that's what I abhor about some critique.

With regards to the blogs suggestion Ray makes and where a poem receives comments it goes to the top again. In theory it's a decent idea and I remember when a poem was edited after the original posting, it used to go back to the top but this caused some complaints and was changed.
The problem would be, as Isobel mentioned. Some people like to have a chit-chat style discussion in the comments which kind of defeats the object of Ray's idea I think :-)

I've had experiences where some poets on here have sent private emails with some ideas on editing and it has proved very helpful and not so 'out there'. It works for me that way :-)

I've only just discovered this thread...

I think Ann was in agreement with me that allowing most recently commented on poem jump to the top wasn't a good idea.

I don't know if you were on the site Ray when the same thing happened every time we edited a poem. For the sake of one little word our poems could by pass everything else posted. It caused embarrasment if you edited after posting a lot and made me not want to edit.
I enjoy the banter that goes on in my comments - I would hate to have to cut down on that for fear of keep going to the top of the pile.

I can see what you mean about poems disappearing after a couple of days though Ray. In some ways WOL is a victim of its own success. The red x button allows us to screen but you have to be logged in to do that, which I don't always like to do. I don't think there are any easy answers.

I post my poems cos I like feedback. I prefer positive feedback to negative cos I'm egotistical. Most musicians play cos they want to entertain an audience. They hope for applause more than jeers. So it is with my poetry - I hope people might enjoy it. I doubt I would write much if there was nowhere to put it and no-one to praise it. How much of that praise is hot air and how much is genuine, I don't worry about too much. I'm happy to listen to critique - will follow it if I agree and it doesn't involve a re-write.

Like Winston I enjoy meeting the folk I've chatted to on here at venues. WOL is an extension of that. It is a social forum as well as a place to stuff your stuff.

Just to reiterate the point about this that I made on the other thread:

Ray - I like the idea. I used to be involved with a bulletin board/forum and they had a 'new posts' button, which worked in the same way. Used 'vbulletin' software - not sure how that would work on here, or even if there is a freeware version. vbulletin allows you to produce polls too (public or private), so people could vote on various things, without having to comment if they don't want to (say, for proposed changes to the site, or for competitions).

Although it would appear that some poems have a short shelf life, I read back through loads of blogs if I see one newly posted and really like it. Can't be the only one who does that. I suppose I should have commented but am only just getting my teeth into WOL at the moment.

I joined WOL after seeing a member from here perform some of her poems, and they moved me to tears. I wanted to be able to touch people with my words, like she did with me - not just emotionally, but physically, and cerebrally. So that's why I post mine. Am currently girding my loins for my first performance, and want to do it because I reckon it will be a kick.

I generally only comment on other blogs if I like the poem. I don't feel 'qualified' to be able to offer any technical critique, although I have pointed people at their typos in a gentle way because I think they would want to know. I have said sometimes that I'd like to see certain ideas extended, but that's mainly because I want to see what the poet would do when they take it further. More selfishness than anything.

Poetry - ALL writing - is so hugely subjective, that what works for one person just won't work for another, and are we after a definitive 'good' poem? I guess this has been done to death on here.

Whenever anyone has offered me any constructive criticism on here, it has been well-mannered, and friendly. I have considered what they have said, or questioned further, and then made a decision as to whether I want to change it or not. If I don't, I like to say why I haven't. If I was to receive abrupt, arrogant, elitist criticism, they'd get a gob-full back I'm afraid.

What I am really not keen on is the enthusiasm for authorial explanation that keeps popping up. I hold reception theory dear to my heart, and am loathe to close off avenues of interpretation, pleasure, and thought for a reader, because I cannot stand being handed any authoritative meaning myself. It's been quite funny and weird sometimes though, reading what other people have read into my writing - stuff that sometimes I a) just never considered in the first place and it confuses me, and b) just never considered in the first place but yeh - blimey - I can see that, sort of thing!

Win - I didn't suggest the comments making the poem jump back to the top in fact I would be against it personally.

Re Why post? I find it a buzz! And I love to feel involved in the site as I'm a lonely old sod! ;-)

Ann I have a new bike that needs a run...''can you ride tandem?''

Now, now, Tommy. It's not a ladies bike is it?

Hi All... More nonesence from me! Anne, not sure where I got that from, sorry. Isobel, you seem to speak the most sense on this thread. All good points. Steve, We have been looking for sometime to be abble to add a little green light to accept critique. I would press it every time (twice) but there are others who would never press it. I think its still on the development list isn't it Paul? Win x

If you are lucky and use WOL as a resource of stepping stones it's amazing who you can meet and what you can experience. Its so much more than a list of blog posts but they are at its heart and could be displayed in a number of ways, each having pros and cons and none perfect for everyone. We are lucky we have it and there is some brilliant poems out there. Win x

When I first read Winston's comment about a little green light to accept feedback or critique I thought he was being ironic. But he's not, is he?I'm just lost for words, myself, and I think I'd best remain so.

Ray, No He's not, lets hear your comments! Some posters don't want to accept any comments whatsoever and can now dissable them when posting. Surely the more choice the better?

I write because the words rattle around in my head and demand to be written down. I edit and hone because there is a kind of 'itch' until the words feel they have 'clicked' into a kind of balance.

Since the poem exists it might as well be posted - better than putting it in the bin. Someone else may connect with it and/or have something interesting to say about it. And posting is part of participation in WOL, which is lovely. Other people's posts and comments are a fascinating way of getting to know them.

The poem itself may be ephemeral but old blogs are still there and going back through them is a good way of getting to know a particular person. Many of us would buy a 'best of Write Out Loud' annual, to preserve the best on our bookshelves. It could be limited perhaps to one or two poems per person.

But it's the relationships fostered by the poetry which matter more than the poems themselves. Which is why feedback - even negative feedback - should always be tactful and respectful.

Oooh! A book! That would be exciting! But I guess we can print off our fave poems from here anyway. I do that sometimes (other peoples I hasten to add!) But we could have a WOL Annual - like the Beano!! With a pic of Valerie Singleton on the front, just for Banksy!! ;-)

Actually, talking of feedback, I recently bought a second hand copy of a Seamus Heaney book and it's got loads of scribbled comments and underlinings inside telling me what it all means! A bit annoying.

A little green button?

I think that was discussed before we came up with the 'no comments' facility. So not in development and not on the list for development.

Perhaps we could have a Gold button - where the poet only wants praise.

Or Gold Stars?
Or a 'like' button - that's on the list somewhere

I thought you were joking at first Paul - but reading back over the thread, I see you are serious.

I think any poet who set themselves up asking for praise but no critique would set themselves up for immediate ridicule. Surely you either have comments of any nature or you disable. When you release anything to the internet, you have to accept that it is being read by all kinds of nasty people as well as nice people. There will therefore be the crackpots who just don't get or like your poetry. We either try to see their point and adapt or ignore them.

I would never turn away critique like I would never turn away praise - but everyone is different, I guess.

He's joking! (At least I hope he is!)

Sorry, didn't make myself clear. The 'praise' button would only be for me!

Gold merit marks - hey, why the hell not? Worked in primary school ;D

Hallelujah! (to Paul that is)
Amen

Ah Yes, the no comments button did replace the green button (Accept criticism) button. The 'like' button is a bit like hits but more possitive and the speed of it would attract lots of presses maybe. What about the Jenson Button?

Sorry folks - that's me skim reading again - shouldn't do that - shouldn't be on here in fact - have somewhere to go! Long live sensible critique, harmony, peace and all that. xx

ps Glad to see you've found your religion Chris.

Chris - I'm so happy to see you have come out of hiding. You have so much to contribute here :-)

Mr Black, will you please define 'showcasing'?

I know! We could all have round bits of card with HIT and MISS on and hold them up when we've read the poem! Where's that nice Mr David Jacobs gone? ;-)

PS Back to the crits thing. Sometimes I've noticed that when someone posts a poem they actively ask for criticism. But they don't always get it!

I have posted my poems up here, simply to see if any poets can give me feedback good or bad on my work, I also wish to collaborate with other people, I love not just poetry but many art forms, I am not a purest I believe that art can crossover.

I am interesting in doing design work for other poets, or composing music to go with peoples poems. etc

I believe that in this time of being essentially skint because of lack of funding and the general misery of this country to boot (england) it is good to get involved with creativity and creative thinking people.
I can say right now that personally I wont praise someone for their poems if I don't like them. It's only opinions at the end of the day anyway. If I don't like a poem and say why it doesn't make it a bad poem but it's just not the style I'm in to.

I don't like pretentious poems that have a load of big extravagant words in them. I didn't study english at university, I haven't got an MA. I don't have a clue about structure. I don't have loads of books published and I haven't done every poetry event under the sun. I don't have time to do things for free all the time! hehe. rant over. I like passion and honesty and someone who has experienced something that they cant just simply keep within themselves they have to get it onto paper...

I love extravagant words! Down with the parsimony of small words! More poems with long words in them! Have a haruspication of peas on me! Let's get all polyphiloprogentive with our vocabulary! Let's call spades artisanal digging implements now! A pint of your finest foaming liquid effulgences, landlord!

I'm not sure if I'm on the right thread for this or whether Paul will even read this contribution but here goes...
Ray was saying that it would be nice if poems that got comments were popped to the top of the blogs so that he could see the ones that roused more general interest. For a number of reasons many of us disagreed with him. Ray did have a point about poems being here today and gone tomorrow. Difficult to keep up with the poems that we have engaged with...

How about some kind of bookmarking system Paul? Where if you have commented on a poem you can run a filter to see all the poems you've commented on in a month. Maybe it would be too expensive for the techies to do - or maybe someone has already suggested it - don't have the time to go reading back over all this - apologies if they have. It was just a thought - something that I thought would definitely improve the site and a tool that I would enjoy.

Good idea, though it's also a good point that the techies are pedalling hard to keep up - which we're all grateful for.

And what about thanking people for their comments?? Sometimes I do and sometimes I don't, depending on a plethora of things. But, always hope I don't cause offence by sometimes thanking, sometimes not. A dilemma!

Thank you for your comment about Juke Box Jury, Ann; ah, those were the days! Imagine having a popular music programme these days for young people (or whatever appellation they attract currently) chaired by a David Jacobs character? Unimaginable, incomprehensible (that long enough, Steve?)We shall take account of all these comments (honest!) when we look to make further changes to the discussions pages, which are due to be amended in line with the 'groups' facility being developed. Thanks also for starting this discussion, Ann. It's a HIT with me.

Thank you for thanking me Julian, but I didn't start this thread, t'was Ray Miller. I noticed at HB several people said it took them ages to get to the bottom on some poets profile pages to add a comment. Scrolling is pretty quick on my computer so I'd never though there was a problem. Why don't we have the little comments box at the top instead of the bottom of the comments scroll? Seems like a simple idea to me. xx

Not sure if anyone saw the advice to use the home and end buttons on the keyboard which take you to the top and bottom of the list of entries (I have started using these and they speed thing up a lot)