I'm revising, quite ruthlessly, all my poems. Some of my stuff contains THOSE WORDS, but I feel they have become devalued and stripped of both mystery and poetic resonance - by overuse.

Those words have become cliches almost - which is a shame because they relate to aspects of life which are of great interest to many poets.

I am trying to take those words out, to replace them.

But my difficulty is in finding alternative words, expressions and allusions.

Any ideas?

I'm not sure I can help you there Steve - other than to say, just don't use the words then.

I've written plenty of poems about love and affairs of the heart without ever mentioning those words - just creating a mood.

If you are doing a purge on cliched words, could you also look into ways of getting rid of 'and' 'a' and 'the'. You see them just about everywhere nowadays.

'Poems' and 'poetry' too - they are becoming cliched - someone even tagged a blog with one of those recently.

Steve, don't use them, it's not ok. All burned out. All faded and shredded.Even faded and shredded has an appeal, so those words are below those. Its obvious everything has a heart else no everything. Love is obvious and excists for hate, but as god said it takes guts to be gentle and kind, and you know im quoting the real god there, the mancunian man himself,kings road, soul, like centre, like the self in a poem. Obvious but needy. The catharsis of the self centre, the need to write ones personal excistence as though it matters or as though anyone not connected with it would care.Who could be so narcissistic to think our stupid lives matter like the ink bled out from this gutter pressed blotting paper .The universe does not. It only cares for its own black hole. Black soul, perhaps sucking us in. The universe is self centred. It begs for the obvious in order to perpetuate itsself for it fears individuality. Daring to break away is what it fears. Like satans dogs when reared on fairy cakes, turn out to be something anyone could hate but themselves. These overused words, these early graves of obviousness, dont keep them warm, obstain, for they only spawn the obvious.

The lyricist Oscar Hammerstein (of Rodgers & Hammerstein) enjoyed the challenge of not writing DIRECTLY about love and was a master at it. The fun is finding the right allusion and going with it. But love is a timeless emotion and if the poem is good enough it can bear its inclusion if need be. And a cliche is only a cliche because it is widely understood. Is that such a bad thing? Not necessarily...even in poetry.

I don't think you need to be absolutist about this; but I agree with most people here that you should avoid vague abstraction wherever possible.

One thing I don't personally like, however, is the way some people hide their feelings under complex metaphor (this poem about a zoo is really about a break-up..., for instance.) Indirection and metaphor are fine, but sometimes directness is fine too.

like the eskimos and their snow we have a billion meanings for the words love, heart and soul.

i agree with a lot of the post by pete...thats a beautifully put poetic statement incorporating all three words and obviously stating the trend for nihilism. 'the universe is self centred.' tis indeed i like the idea of the black hole, we have individually seperated ourselves trying to claim the soul. the closer we get to our core the stronger the vortex pull. we replace nothingness with our opposites cos inbetween is something real. something built on faith hope and trust in love and in hate we create and destruction makes way for more room to radiate.
of course we should include these big three concepts...stated simply as we see themm. its complex enough.
alternative words etc,, any associations of love are real. you could make images of piles of jellybabies or a bloody lip from where you got hit and they might describe love. im all for telling stories. i wanna read em x

love you hearts and hearts ste soul sucker xx

An ancient Greek - Ovid - penned a couple of words. They lasted well. If you don't wish to use threadbare wordage then that's your choice. But like others have said, if it's good enough the verses will take it and be proud. Don't be swayed simply by peer pressure, if you feel your previous choices are no longer shining examples of you brilliance then 'do what you gotta do' or, like Ovid, let them take the test of time. Your call!

Beware of "being too clever by half". Go for the allusion if your
imagination and vocabulary are up to it. Otherwise. keep things simple and direct.

OK, plenty to think about there – thanks guys.

My stuff isn’t exactly littered with those words, but I have now carried out a partial purge. Most notably my poem ’Back Streets of the Heart’ (about my love of redbricked terraced houses of the sort I grew up in) has lost the word 'heart' from both the title and the bodytext. The poem has been renamed ‘Redbricked’ and, I think improved.

‘Love’ remains in a couple of poems, and certainly in ‘The Finished Sentence of Love’.

All your comments were interesting. Many thanks. Who wrote about ‘Satan’s dogs when raised on fairy cakes’? I think it was Pete. Yes, it was! Well. any road, I’m nicking that phrase, pal.

I think I used 'love' quite a lot in my early days (who doesn't?) and my first ever example on WOL was 'There's a heart somewhere that's twinned with mine...and on the road there is a sign "This Heart Welcomes Careful Drivers', which I wasn't even sure was a poem (although a couple of lovely WOLlers assured me it was).

But as for 'soul', nope, that would be a bridge too far for me, especially since Tony Ferrino's exemplary rendition of......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qePPPFANVPU

Absolutely the last word : )

Jx

Urrrgh .. .wondering down "the valley of our soul" with Steve Coogan in cheesy crooner mode. Good job I have an ensuite vomitarium here, John.

Hilarious. Haven't seen that before.

"Back Streets of the Heart" - what a
super title for a country song!!

Yeah, MC, and that's why I changed it to 'Redbricked'... much as I'm fond of a bit of Kountry Korn.

Gotta go home now ... or am just "headin' for the cheatin' side of town?"

Some Country lyrics are able to stand alongside "poetry" for their
ability to connect to our humanity.
"Sunday Morning Coming Down" comes to mind.

Steve, what a 'heartwarming' enterprise with 'loving' diligence: the revision of old poems - brilliant. If 'LOVE' really fitted, keep it, etc. Don't be bossed about by the so-called 'know-it-all's'. What is tenderly regarded by the mighty unwashed masses as a fine word is still a damn good word.

I'd forget about it, guys. Poetry's like a wank - it's a passable 2nd best to the real thing.

A thousand times 'no' John. Good poetry is better than 'the real thing' and good poets are more precious than rubies.

Admmittedly, there are loads of awful poets around, but even the doggerel-pushers and political ranters deserve credit for at least trying.

I've just come back from my local pub in New Brighton. There the company of men assembled (I wish there had been some women, as it goes) talked of Mamma Cass, Tony Orlando, Fab 208, love, divorce, and the destiny of humankind. And one of the men in our group was a dead ringer for Vladimir Putin.

Magic Realism. It's why I live here. There is no more poetic territory than New Brighton.

Cynthia, today I revised my revisions. It is a labour of ... well, it's a labour anyway. x

Love's labour's lost?

I'm torn. Part of me would like to agree with you Steve - because poetry has started to form such a big part of my life. There is a nagging voice inside that tells me John Coopey has to be right though. As unpoetic as it sounds - poetry is wank - the real thing is life - preferably with love in it.

Not a thousand times "No", Steve; just one will do.
I might be wrong, but if I am you should have no trouble pointing me in the direction of a poem which is
more pleasurable than ejaculation
or more painful than crucifixion
or more emotional than childbirth
or more wrong than the death of your child.
Any poem will do. Just one.

John, I've heard/ read a few that definitely tick the second box...

And is that childbirth with or without the addition of modern pharmaceuticals?

Can't help you with the first and fourth points though...

(I over-use ellipses)

You make your point well John - marvellous illustrations, in fact.

I can't help you with ejaculation, either... The female equivelant is pretty marvellous though and would stack up well against any poem on the same subject.

To say that a poem could ever fully express the feelings you have at the birth of a child, would be a nonsense for me - with our without pain relief. Once the baby's out the all pain goes anyway - it's just about euphoria and wonder.

I have never lost a child but can only imagine the pain. Coping with a child's severe illness is excruciating though - not something that you'd want to directly express in words or that anyone would enjoy reading about.

So, John, you feel that, as masturbation is the private alternative to sex, poetry is the private alternative to life?

I suggest that escapism, books and films, are 2nd best to life. Poetry is 2nd best to rapping, obviously.

The mind is the ultimate arbiter of perceived pleasure and it is all subjective. Some things are beyond our creation as individual beings...laid down, as it were, by a "blue print" over which we had no say - but the development of the mind allows wider perception of things - just as a flower opens up to its surroundings. Some minds do not go on (develop?) to appreciate the art forms that Man has created or, if they do, they are limited in their ability to either appreciate or understand: just as I am lost when scientists get busy telling us what they do and how! The extension of our pleasure beyond the blue print is what makes life so meaningful and enjoyable. Love is a human word for a blue print emotion- just as "wank" is a human word for a blue print action. Both are created from the mind to help us understand the blue print but do not prevent us from understanding that there IS more to life than procreation and its eager servant...sexual pleasure, and often has more long term effects/benefits than the latter, without the guilt.

Not wishing to bang on about it at all - but to my mind John wasn't suggesting that poetry should be a private alternative to life - I think he was just looking for an amusing analogy for something that is second best.

Every hobby that we have could be viewed as escapism, in that it alleviates some of the tedium that you also find in life. For some, poetry can be a bit of a lifeline - particularly on a site like this, where you can make on line friendships or give your brain a bit of stimulation. There is a danger in letting hobbies take over your life though - live relationships offer far more substance - going out rather than staying in, is far more healthy.

''The mind is the ultimate arbiter of perceived pleasure''?
''Some things are beyond our creation as individual beings.''??...''blue print...blue print...blue print...blue print...blue print...etc. Total wank.

T.C. - if there is something I have written that you don't understand,
feel free to ask.

I used to think not. As these words seemed like empty vessels. But now I think so. I used "heart" in a poem and it nearly made the top of my head come off. I felt so nervous sharing the poem with others but it went down well with those whose opinions matter to me. I believe you need to give a lot of respect to words like these. Mishandled they make one's work trite.

Steve - I've lived and worked in Wigan for a long, long time and I'm not sure if either one of those words that you've mentioned are still listed in the town's libraries ageing Dictionaries...?

'Love' and 'Soul' are those two concepts that secrete themselves among the words of many poets.

Shining a brilliant light into each one of their naked notions can often reveal more than we can tolerate.

Both 'Love' and 'Soul', if they are to be employed in our writing directly, should be surrounded by capable constituents or diluted with fast flowing waters of simile, metaphor, imagery and context?

If this doesn't work - all we're left with are those futile, battle weary soldiers of cliché.

I've written poetry containing both of these words - for a whole host of reasons - not least because I've been both in love AND sold my soul - (back in the day when the exchange rate was much better than it is today i hasten to add) they'll always keep coming back - but, as someone once said, judge a word by the company that it keeps - if they're supportive enough - you'll be forgiven.

The Greeks, like many other nationalities have more than one word for "LOVE" and it's a pity that the English language has made no attempt to enlarge on this singular word which attempts to encapsulate the entire spectrum of meaning it could have- these words are burdened by the narrowness of traditional linguists which is a shame since many other words in English like compassion, tolerance, understanding, are far from physical or platonic love...My view is that ultimately these words (love, soul etc) need qualifiers (allusions or metaphors) which can never be found too easily.

Roget's Thesaurus has many suggestions:
Nouns:
Fondness, liking, inclination, desire, wish, fancy, fantasy, want, need, exigency.
partiality, penchant, prediliction, relish.
longing, hankering, yearning, coveting, zeal, ardour,
cupidity, lust, concupiscence,
allurement, temptation, seduction, fascination, whim, whimsy,
verbs: set one's eyes on, cast a sheep's eye upon, look sweet upon, be bent upon, set one's cap at, covet.
desire, wish, hope, crave, itch, run mad after, die for, burn for,pine for, woo, court, solicit, fish for, ogle
Adjectives:
Keen, eager, avid,fervent, ardent, agog, impatient,
Adverbs; fain, wistfully,
What strikes one about all these is how awfully dated they are, almost entirely. I wonder what a trawl of facebook or twitter would bring up. Not many of these I suspect. This suggests that we have to find new ways of saying love. In fact very few of these words actually are about love. They are almost all about the transactions that replace love where sex is the driving force, regardless of the object of attention. In other words they are about objectifying and not about loving.

@Newberry: No need-I understand the meaning of ' wank'.

HHHmmm, a lot to think about there. I'm not going to get involved in the debate about masturbation (though I'm well qualified to).

My poetry revisions are complete now, and they involved the throwing away of one or two "spiritual" poems.

There weren't that many references to "Love", "heart" or "soul" in my poems anyway, but some have now been culled; some have been allowed to stay (for now) because they have fine, supportive neighbours and are bound within beautiful metaphors.

It would be great to bang on about country songs (and as a regular attender of Kountry Karaoke afternoons in a pub on Beverly Road, Hull, a few years ago, I am qualified tio opine about that too).

But I've just applied fresh mascara and I don't want to go all panda-eyed just yet. There will be plenty of time for that once I start on the second bottle of Rioja at the Bards of New Brighton night on Easter Monday.

Easter is the season of such hope ... so WHY DO I FEEL SO SAD!