The thought has struck me, as someone who doesn't do performance poetry, "do poets who like to perform their work write with the idea of performance in mind"? Can you hear yourselves reading it out in public when you write it, or is it written with an audience in mind? Just curious and in admiration. Graham

It's a good question Graham and one which is touched upon in many other discussion threads in the writing of poetry debate.

I've spoken to a few regular 'performers' who tell me they have written what they consider to be ''throw away'' poems. Perform it once and ditch it.
The question i'd like to have answered is do those same people afford their performance poetry or throw away poems the same amount of brutality in editing as they would a page poem.

Personally, this confuses me a little because while in my opinion a performance poem should at least have a great rhythm, sometimes it also needs a little more description to ''get the point of it across'' in the two or three minutes there is to perform it.
Pause and effect. Emphasis on pause. :-)

I'd just like to add that in my own experience ( only been performing my poetry for approximately 18 months ) the venue plays a huge role in the type of poetry which is best received on the night.
A quiet room where other poets are actually listening is great for reading ''page'' poetry but the rant styles don't always get as much appreciation in the same venue.
I suppose the real art of performing could be having the ability to weigh up the audience and which of your poems would be best received. Either way, i've discovered all the places i've visited so far have been very supportive of new and well seasoned performers. That's what i enjoy about the Wol events.

I'm sure there's far more to be said on this subject but it's a good start for now.

Janet is right about choosing your audience and venue - page poetry can be performed in a quieter venue and be well received.
I write the occasional strictly performance piece and very soon know what it is developing into as I write it - yes I can hear myself saying it as I write - I guess it satisfies the stage hungry part of me. You should try it - performance poetry can give you such a buzz - makes me wish I was a better musicien or singer though - it would be easier not to have to write it yourself.

It all depends on what you mean by "performance writing."

You don't need any skill to get up and rant in front of a bunch of drunken jackasses in a pub. Just beer.

But if you want to write poetry that lives in the memory and is an experience all of its own, then a little more is required. And are we talking "pub-singer" level of performance "AY-a didit MYYAHHH WHHAAAYYY!" or Micheal Clarke Dance kind of performance, or a really great performance of Hamlet, or the Sex Pistols at the Little Free Trade Hall, or what?

So much so-called "performance poetry" is about as challenging to the status-quo as a flat vowel in a cotton mill.

Steven

Given that being challenging is apparently a good thing ......

Isn't one of WOL's main purposes to make poetry more accessible to ordinary people? If people trying to listen to poetry in a pub are being dismissed as "a bunch of drunken jackasses" doesn't that run counter to the culture most of us are trying to foster, which cheerfully embraces both highbrow and lowbrow?

Given that the title of this discussion thread is 'performance potery writing', Steven, what is/are the technical difference/s between performance poetry and 'page' poetry?

Although i directed the question at Steven due to his comment, can anyone enlighten us literally as opposed to being based on their own preferences?

I've asked this question several times and never received anything which tells me there's a real difference as long as it is read/performed well out loud.

i write stuff that i think is just for performance

but mostly i write for the page

i get that anything could be read well and also appreciate Steve's comments

for me Janet - the main difference is that i think that even though i may perform a page poem (read it well etc) the listener can't rewind while listening whereas a page poem can be revisted on the page to view the structure and content of the metaphor and so on.

As listener, we can maybe pick up images from within a performance poem, but once it has been read/performed it's then pastence - a page poem you can return to and re-read and consider at your leisure

to return to Graham's point - my answer would be yes - some ideas lend themselves to performance and i write with that in mind

:-)

Do you really have to be so confrontational Steven? Performance poetry is obviously more than standing up and delivering verse to a bunch of drunks. Just as there are different standards of singers/lyrics, so there are different levels of performance poets/ poetry - so I would disagree with you - yes it does take skill to get up and perform anything well, whatever the venue. We can all choose what type of poetry we write and what venue whe choose to read it in. I won't revisit that discussion since it has been done to death in other threads - as has performance poetry, come to think of it... Perhaps we should all save ourselves a lot of bother and just reread the last thread on the same subject.

Wanna know just how good a performance poet ya are?

Stop a number of people in the street out side Tesco's or a boozer, one where you are not known and without the support of our usual neutrally talanted sycophants... troubadour and jester all on yer own...Get them laughing better crying ...just see how powerful the measure of your words and how slick your performance....Your audience will tell you.....believe me

It's nothing to do with memorising your lines... and song and dance routine...it's the words.... always... the words...and how they are enacted in front of an audience that can be made to listen if they hear the right words.

Yes I have...

Gus

Well said Gus. I have had people drop their kecks and moon at me while reading, so overcome with emotion were they (needless to say they were men). I think a poem for performance can fall back on the staples of all popular performance (and of course with a long lineage of its own), repetition, rhythm, rhyme, choruses etc. Performance is entertainment after all. Discuss

"Performance poetry is obviously more than standing up and delivering verse to a bunch of drunks. "

Not from what I've seen of Slams it isn't.

I agree, well said Gus.

Steven- i'd be interested to know how long it's been since you last went to a slam. Believe me when i say in the year or so that i've attended slams in the north west, they are changing.
I also think that those regular, long-time slammers are going to have to up their game if they want to stay on top. I have to say i would have agreed with you a while ago because that was my thoughts on slams too. Perhaps the word in itself lends the idea that the poetry performed for slam should be hard rants, i'd like to see them re-names as competitions as opposed to slam events but i wouldn't change the rules, they are all part of the atmosphere generated before the event.
Obviously this is only my own view for discussion purposes.

I don't think that competitive sport should have anything to do with poetry. I think it's a horrible capitalistic import from the land that brought us George Dubya Bush & Big Macs and should go right back there.

I suppose it all depends on how one enters into the sport.
I've been on both sides of a slam and enjoyed it all but when i entered one i had no real worries of winning. I actually entered for the spirit of the event and came last. I still enjoyed the experience.

Some of the poets have a competitive edge and there's nothing wrong with that and slams help those poets get their blood and pulses racing. It's as competitive as the poets make it.
Love 'em or hate 'em i hope they'll stay around for some time to come. They're completely different to open-mic nights and equally as entertaining for my money.

Poetry should not be a sport.

Why not?
Not every sport is lively and full of people kicking a ball around.
There are some very sedate sports and some very seductive ones too. All depends on your definition of sport.

Well I'm truly put off the performance side of poetry now I think (not that I was considering it). From what I read it sounds like the slam type events must be like the old punk rock concerts. Do the audience throw beer over the poets or not?
Seriously though, it appears to my delicate senses that performance means noisy, brash, loud, lary. Is that right?
Isn't there a place for the quieter, more sensitive stuff?
Let's face it, even when the punk were in full flight, there was still room for Val Doonican.

Don't be put off performance Graham - it is great fun. Poetry needs to come alive, jump off the page, particularly in today's world where less and less people sit and read. Poetry needs taking to the masses - it shouldn't be an elite little pass time for the privileged few. Many people haven't had the benefit of nurturing parents, good schooling and their only introduction to poetry may come from what some might consider the lower end of the performance scene - pubs. I understand if the pub scene isn't for you but there are many more up market venues such as art galleries where quieter more thoughtful poetry goes down very well. Like Janet said, slams have changed. The last one I attended was not at all rowdy and the quality of poetry was excellent. I have never been part of one but it is something I'm mulling over - they are great to watch though. The performance poetry scene is also a great social one. Everyone there has something in common - a love of language - just for that alone, I would always recommend it to any poet. Just have a go - I am sure you'll love it

Val bloody Doonican George?......?...Are you off your rocker !?

You poety types make me smile with your arguments re performance/writing pomes.
I have a cunning plan.
Keep WOL for performance pomes.
Have a new site - WOQ (Write Out Quietly) for written pomes.
And a third site - WOS (whinging old sadarses) for whinging old sadarses.
Everyones a winner!
The things I do for you lot!
Well done me. You all owe me a beer.

Baz - you are a genius - you've said it in a nutshell. But will it shut them/us up ? I rather think not. See you tomorrow - if I'm focussing properly after the vast quantities of alcohol that I am sure to drink - that's what all performance poets do - innit?? xx

Graham - I once did a poetry gig where an audience member tried to set fire to me with some sort of handheld flame-thrower. And that was in Maidenhead, of all places.

Don't get involved. It's a jungle out there.

Russell/Rachel, probably not funny at the time but very amusing in the telling :-)

Your poetry must be very enlightening Russell. Remind me never to read in Maidenhead - we do it with class in Wigan. To my knowledge nobody has ever thrown anything - it is something we just joke about. I spent half my childhood refusing to eat cabbage because my sister didn't like it. Once I tried it, I realised just what I'd been missing.

Indeed, Isobel. The Wigan poetry crowd are civilised types. The one time I performed there, the host (Mr Togher) even made me some sandwiches for my journey home the following day. In Maidenhead, they'd just have chucked them in my face.

Why shouldn't poetry be a sport? Because it's an artform, that's why; because it's meant to leave you changed the way a good artwork does. Because poetry as a sport makes it aggressive and macho and frankly about as deep and lasting as a McDonald's Shitburger. That's why.

Synchronized swimming and Chess are both recognized sports and yet are poetic in form.
The former requires a streamline form, grace and elegance in difficult circumstances. (eg. breathing under water is impossible for humans but the capacity to hold ones breath for sufficient time to fulfill the required elements of a routine is essential and takes a great deal of practice to make perfect.)

Chess on the other hand requires great concentration and clever moves of each participant. (It's a game i have never tried to play so my expertize in this area is non-existent.) I used to be a genius in the game draughts.( a much simpler form of chess.)

In my humble opinion. :-)

Neither synchronised swimming nor chess are "poetic."

This caught my interest Steve - a break from cooking and battering away at a paper that's making my brain ache - think this will make it ache even more though now.

I agree with you on that point, but, what about sports that have poetic rhythm, or poetic form?

hay look a flying pig!..............'eueee!'

Sport may be skilful, expressive, there may even be vaguely artistic elements to it (often as an incidental by-product) but surely it's not poetic in any sense ? ?

It's my birthday too!

John- my poetry is an incidental bi-product. I rest my case.

It's just gone very dark outside and i just realized something.
I'm wasting my time explaining my reasoning here.
Janet just bowed out but thanks for the discussion.

Back to Graham's original point (and because, oh no, I can't let this thread go without my own gripes!) Once you've performed a couple of times you probably find yourself honing certain works into performance poems because in some ways it is a different art, and perhaps a more pleasurable one.

I sometimes think that there's no point in tricks like rhyming and alliteration if you're not planning on performing the poem.
I'm a bit saddened by the nasty things being said about performance poetry in this thread, it's an older art than the written word, not it's poorer cousin.

I do agree that slams can sometimes bring in some bad quality work, the written word can be more precise and economical than the spoken, where repitition, voice tricks, music and theatricality can sometimes play a part. And some performers do roll out the same imprecise, poorly constructed and gimicky poems sometimes, and may be scored well if the judges are easily won over. I know an excellent performer who doesn't do slams for fear that it can be an environment where funny, or even coarser works, may score highly, to the detriment of his thoughtful and sombre poems.

However, why can't poetry also be a sport? Brecht believed that the theatre should be like a boxing ring, and poetry is many different things. The form can restrict the content, but restrictions can make people more creative, and a bit of competitiveness can bring a fantastic energy, as long as the event is sensitively managed (I've seen some fantastic comperes, and some dire ones too)

Open your eyes to the performers, check out you-tube's many great examples. It's a fantastic art-form, and captures audience's hearts in a way that the written word can only aspire to.

And for the record, I write to perform, but it doesn't stop those poems still looking fine on the page. It's a question of quality.

thats a good question, im not sure if anyone really writes with the set mind of performing, well, i know i dont. I tend to obliterate the page with ink and then figure out what goes where afterwards. Its the latter that makes the distinction between the more 'personal' approach and the public one. On the topic of poetry being a sport; the idea itself disgusts me, as poets we barely have a slot in the majority as it is without having to further categorize ourselves into a bigger section. Poetry is literature and literature cannot be sport. Its as simple a that.