Is all poetry created from catharsis? If not what and where does it come from? If you've read my recent poetry blog you may realise that this is my word of the week! An unusual word that originates from the greek name Katheros - modern English Catherine meaning purity, innocence and developed into what we understand now in artistic terms as the purging of ones emotions through writing or painting etc

Is even the most objective poem grounded in catharsis?

I suppose if you treat poetry as a therapeutic outlet ,then in a high number of case's the answer is yes.
If one uses poetry as art and imagery to get a message across then it is a tool as a paintbrush would be. If a poet takes a subject and produces work then it isn't really a cleansing of the soul or purge as Aristotle would of described, but words which the poet thinks will register and evoke imagery and emotion in the reader. This effect doesn't cleanse the poets soul,but may lead to other work which does. The difference that I can see is the trigger for the original work. Every poet puts a piece of themselves into the work or else creativity would be missing. So is poetry in it's pure form a sum of all ?, yes, does it help a poet to release this ? - maybe not. Is this why poets drink or whatever ? probably.
Just an opinion , I hope it's OK.

I would say no but then someone will probably come along and argue otherwise. Very many people write poetry that has nothing to do with their feelings and emotions. Some people manage to imagine those feelings and emotions, claiming never to have had them themselves... Some people get into poetry for catharsis and then branch out from there - others stick with poetry for catharsis. Impossible to pigeon hole poets or poetry.

Ah, but - and I hate to argue the point (honestly) - the origin of the word catharsis, as you probably may know, is the greek word/name Katharos which means to cleanse. when a poet writes, or a painter paints, or a musician composes. Is he/she not cleansing the imagination, purging the words or the image or the melody that will torment them if they do not? Whether subjective or objective, an objective poem is still a part of the poet, don't you think. Some have more control over others but to write a poem they have to think, and feel and have inspiration. Which always leads back to the 'I'.

By the way the 'I s' in 'I s all poetry created from catharthis' was meant to represent the 'I' in catharthis. Not, as a I looked at it this morning thinking that It looked quite iliterate or had had too many glassess of wine!! haha. Why do all poets ( or most ) drink or other stuff spencer? My favourite poet ever is S T Coleridge, who wrote most his work under the influence in order to find his muse.

I think I'd go with Isobel's view that poets write for a wide variety of reasons. Yes, catharsis ranks high. But there are many reasons why the creative imagination starts experimenting with words and experiencing the need to write them down. A sense of play. Sheer curiosity. A love of words themselves - just as an artist may be fascinated with a medium such as oil or pastel. Maybe to respond to someone else, or get their attention. A motivation springing from politics, religion or a similar philosophical / life viewpoint. And so on. For a (lucky?) few it may even be to pay the bills.

Hate to nit pick Nick - but I think we are in danger of tying ourself up in knots here. I take your point about poets purging themselves of the need to write poetry, be it subjective or objective. However in its modern day interpretation, catharsis is seen as a cleansing or purging of emotional turmoil - not just any old need... I think we are in danger of going over the same points made in a discussion thread raised over the summer 'Is emotional engagement necessary to poetry'. The bottom line for me is that I can't stop putting myself into my poetry - I have little option - it just comes out. I try to vary my style though and say things in an insightful way or my work could become very boring - if it isn't already LOL.

hey, thats not a nit pick Isobel, but a valid comment. Maybe it's a fact of our fallible human nature that many of us have a tendency to get tied up in knots ( if you get my drift ). For me, personally, I find satisfaction in being in the middle of a knot and trying to extricate myself out of it's intricate web of words and thoughts - metaphysically speaking of course ( sounds almost sado-masochistic - not insane - yet! haha).

I keep trying to write something that is purely objective and void of catharsis - failing miserably at the moment. I even manage to put an 'I' in the most inaniminate of objects. Maybe I will have to admit my incapability of success in this area before they carry me away in a straightjacket mumbling incoherent verse!!

And even if I did succeed then the reader would bring his/her own subjectivity to it, so maybe it's a lose lose situation and a phenomena of the written word which will always be unfathomable.

oh, and I do agree ( to a point ) with your comments Isobel and yours also Dave. I have been trying to experiment with different styles, play with words etc and the modern meaning of catharsis has a broader role in the English language than we -or I for one -first assume. It tends to be used from a psychological viewpoint with reference to the psyche, but what about the words that are synonmous to it - ablution, abreaction, lustration, release, ejection, evacuation, excretion, defecation, 'reign of terror', supression, 'witch hunt'? -and no, I did not just swallow an English dictionary! haha. Do we class trips to the loo as cathartic?

You've got me all befuddled Nicky - it's either that or the wine...(Could I just point out that I only drink around dinner time to ease the pain of all the noise and chaos - I ease off thereafter). Is a trip to the loo cathartic? I guess that depends on how 'bound' one is...Oh dear - my lavatorial sense of humour seems to get the better of me on just every thread.

Coming from a medical family, I actually think it does relate to body excretions ... sort of remembering adults talking together.

Nicky, you might enjoy sifting through some of the discussion threads of the past year. It's really an education. I'm still boning up. You have to get beyond General into the more specific areas. Isobel pointed out one; another is the 'I' in poetry from universal experience to confessional therapy. We all have similar interests or we wouldn't be here as lovers of poetry.

I've been following this thread with some interest.
I can associate with everything Nicky says here. As for the later posts with regards to ablutions etc...

I was in a church where i was about to give service but needed a space to say my own little prayer before-hand and this particular church didn't have a separate room away from the public other than a loo.
Someone recognized my needs and said, ''There's many a prayer been said while sitting on a toilet my dear.'' :-)

A few years ago I used to say that writing was a form of catharsis, but to be honest I feel I have moved past that now.

I write regularly one hour a day (in 3 20 minute block usually) and have recently sold a few articles, so I tend to think of writing more as a personal obligation. I need to write to practise and improve.

What is a greater signal that my writing is no longer catharsis is that I am once again writing in a journal. Certainly it's not a daily weekly thing, but I write when I feel like writing. So I think for me there is something else behind poetry than catharsis, I just can't tell you what it is.

I understand what you are saying Martin, and appreciate your comment on this topic, everyone does things in different ways. However, if I had to put my writing time in to three seperate blocks of twenty minutes. I would go unsane, not to offend you at all, but I view writing as spontaneous and not regimental. Do you just break off in the middle of a piece? do you not feel that you lose the flow, the meaning and the moment?

Well, I'm glad that you understand what Martin is saying Nicky, because from where I'm sitting, it's a whole heap of contradictory nonsense...

'moving past' something suggests to me that Martin feels that he's leaving something behind, and that he sees an objective further along his writing ladder where he may feel that any type of catharsis plays a small but insignificant or discomfited part.

I'd say that I had moved 'around' writing from that which is fuelled by a genuine catharsis, but the emotions that are experienced as they're flushed out through this 'soil-pipe' conduit are something that you can dip your empirical nib into - time and time again.

If you write a journal, Martin - is this not one of THE most cathartic actions you can do as a writer? I'm confused - but then again, I live in Wigan.

I recently sold a television.

Darren is right. Anyone who has lived through a nightmare and come through the other side will be haunted by it. It gives you a different perspective on life - often a more insightful one, in my opinion. You WILL dip your nib in it from time to time cos the emotions are part of you, unless you are writing about something totally inanimate without deeper meaning.
Happy New Year Darren - should we sing Old Ang Sein? (excuse the spelling).

Darren, an actual television, or a script for television?

Nicky, this catharsis, a cleansing, is always with us. All poets must possess it to some extent, whatever the synonym chosen. It's the modern idea of 'extreme' that we are ripping to pieces here. I greatly enjoy the original meaning of words, and frequently abhor their gradual metamorphosis to modern usage. But I now go with the flow mostly, with frequent growls and ineffectual snapping. I still often disregard the present meanings for my exact poetical effect, but I do so at the risk of not really communicating fully. And to what point is that?

Martin, many writers follow prescribed schedules and claim this method to be the only route to an actual 'payment' career.

rrrrRev'ran'!

Where do i begin!
Note this is not a question, it is a statement, or could it be that i'm simply attempting to create the right setting to begin writing something. Anything. Anything at all which might resemble a poem whether it be from the inner reaches of my soul or never never land. Personally i've even found inspiration from a tv programme which has nothing whatsoever to do with writing for catharsis, just a need and a want to write.

Some of my best and i have to say some of the worst poems i've ever attempted have been based around a clearing of emotions.
Just occasionally, the motivation behind the first draft alters somewhere along the line when a bigger picture can be seen and formed into something brilliantly put together.
While i'm not speaking directly about my own work when i say brilliant, i guess what i'm trying to say is that catharsis might well be the initial motivation for starting a poem but often when one can 'stand back' and see it from another perspective there is a deeper message or meaning in the text once the strength of the emotions has waned or eased.

All this is probably the reason most writers say we should never throw anything out because one day it might be the inspiration we need to begin a new project. Darren once said to me when i was going through one of those writing block periods that he'd read somewhere that the memory isn't always the most reliable medium to get the productive juices flowing again. I may not have remembered the exact quote but it's near enough for me to be able to recall on this occasion.
Perhaps it is at those times we need to clear out the debris which we call catharsis to clear the blockage?

Darren
You will need to explain... the television you sold in Wigan... it was coal fired.

Now I'm befuddled - ( and it's not from wine Isobel, haha, as it's not past 10am yet - unless my poor befuddled mind of last night has failed to purge itself of that sweet red nectar as yet - actually I don't like sweet prefer subltle dry tones and pints of Stella! Some juxtaposition hey! )

The idea that fascinated me initially regarding catharsis,( when I questioned myself on whether or not I personally thought all poetry was cathartic) was not only to do with the purging of emotion and emotional experience through the medium of words, but whether or not the imagination was cathartically cleansed/ purged of the idea and the words when transferred to paper? ( ugh, thats a long sentence, my English teacher would have rapped my knuckles and made me reassess my syntax!).

Even more befuddling. Is the (sometimes not so simple) act of creating a poem a cathartic experience? Whether the idea for that poem may have come from a TV programme, something that someone says, a word or a spark of emotion. I am attempting to write something totally objective and uncathartic, but, when I have finally done it, will I not feel purged and cleansed of the need to write an objective poem - in all senses of the word cathartic.

Poetry is an itch I have to keep scratching. The itch never quite goes away.

I have suffered for my art.

Now it's your turn.

To pick up on the various point in response to my earier post, he's it is both barrels.

With regard my writing regimen, I often write for far longer but my MINIMUM is 3x 20 minutes. I tend to find that even if I write absolute drivel it keeps the juices flowing. I have also found that the general level of my writing has increased as a result. Many people say that they only write spontainously/when the muse calls, but whilst I used to feel the same I cannot agree now. Making sure that I sit down each day with the goal of writing something has taught me to control my creativity.

As for catharsis I use the term moving past because when I wrote for catharsis (and it will be different for many I suspect) I was writing FOR ME, now I have moved past that and consider my audience carefully when writing. I have moved on from writing poetry/fiction/scripts/articles for me to writing for an audience. As for the journal I feel that it is kind of a redundancy, I will write the innane stuff other people will have no interest in there, and not in my 'Writing'.

Martin, I am sorry if my earlier comment was harsh or offensive in anyway. I grasp a few minutes where I can and sometime what I write is entire drivel. But it is my drivel that sometimes, I may want to share,whether it may be good or bad - and I teach English for my sins and have to criticise poetic form - which is probably why I rebel against it so much.

But, how can you control creativity? do you control the words that pop up inside your head?

All poetry is not created from catharsis. Do you think the person who wrote The Pobble Who Has No Toes was releasing some deeply-felt emotion when he wrote that?

And once you've got your outpouring on the page, what do you do with it? does it just flop there like a dying whale on the beach, or do you actually take the words and shape them into something resembling a poem?

Where did the idea for the poem ' The Pobble that has no toes' come from in the first place? Did Edward Lear not have some ulterior motive for writing the poem, ( or does the subjectivity of the reader give the poem a pourpoise? ). Do you not think the last line could signify, maybe that that we are pobbles and his toes are our worries and woes, and the pobbles' swim across the Bristol channel is a metaphor for overcoming them?

Good poem, by the way. He had a vivid imagination, and lets rip in this one.

Can I just address a comment to Martin. You say that when you wrote for catharsis you wrote for yourself and that now you write for an audience. I just want to say that the two need not be separated. I personally like emotional poetry - just so long as it doesn't go overboard and become sentimental. I like to read a poem that I can empathise with and understand. Emotions, experiences sad or otherwise are what connect us all as humans - take that out of poetry and it becomes a bit dead for me. I won't go on too much more cos this has been dealt with under other threads - just wanted to reiterate my position on it.

I'm off to read Edward Lears poem. It sounds like fun!
Well, shortly anyway. I've got all day.

It seems that the inspiration for some - but not all - would-be poets, is usually a 'significant emotional event' occurring in their lives. An event that demands an outpouring of grief - or happiness - or any other recognised emotion.

However, this tin of 'catharsis paint' can only colour SOME of poetry's fence, and this is before you even begin to climb its invisible walls.

If a person wants to attempt to scale those great heights, then any would-be poet should equip themself with many things - not least - a talent. A knowledge of the mechanics of language. A pair of comfortable shoes. A skin thicker than 'a work-house butty' and last, but certainly NOT least - an awareness of what is already considered to be 'great poetry' and WHY?


Much of what I've recently read on WOL is either covered in that fashionable hue of 'Catharsis Cream' or 'Bitter and Twisted Lemon' (with a mild hint of personal insult). There are few who wish to decorate their poetic works with those soft furnishings of thought concerning either form, meter, rhythm or assonance. Instead, they're nailing their work onto blogs with rusty 1" poetic prose nails in an attempt to expose and 'show off' their work.

They then invite their poetry neighbours around to come and look at what they've done? Even, in some cases, encouraging comments...

"Oooooh, that's a lovely Catharsis Sylvia - when did you paint that?"
"Last Week - after Tommy left".
"Well, it's beautiful...but...it's... it's NOT poetry".
"No - it's poetry created from Catharsis".
"Ahhh - you mean it's prose"?
"Whatever it is - it's Catharsis".
"But not poetry"?
"Not unless I turn it upside down. See?"
"It still looks the same"
"It is the same - but different".
"Sylvia"?
"Yes?"
"Do fack Off".
"Don't mind if I do - one sugar".

In answer to the question. No.

PS. It's 'Fresher's Week' or 'Freshers' Week' - I'm not too sure? Either way - I'm bored - till next week. Just another 270 blogs to read.

PPS. Just read your last comment Isobel. Emotion is almost inevitable, but not always necessary with regard to poetry. However, does that emotion still have to be conveyed in a way that is deemed to be 'poetry' or does it otherwise become its diluted cousin 'poetic prose'?
On a previous thread not everyone could agree just what IS poetry. Having a 'catharsis' oozing and fueling a writer's words does little to help with the structure or playful use of syntax, morphology or indeed the semantics of a language.

I suppose the downside to being a mature student is that you can't quite get the same degree of fun out of freshers week. Instead you have to hang around putting the boot into everyone on WOL and generally making a nuisance of yourself. Your obvious distaste for emotional poetry inspires me to post one - I might just dig one out of my emotional archives - in a Sylivia Plath style (or so I like to tell myself). The problem is Darren, that this site is home to all, professional and unprofessional, skilled and unskilled, talented and untalented. We have to just learn to accept it. At the end of the day - one man's meat is another man's catharsis.

This may be a complete red herring but for people who like to do for art what Darren thinks most of us do for poetry

https://wbx-files.s3.amazonaws.com/jacksonpollock_by_miltos_manetas.swf

have a go - paint your own masterpiece a la jackson pollock then get the neighbours round to admire it.

But don't enjoy yourself!

Not too sure how a mature student 'can't quite have the same degree of fun out of freshers week'? That's an awfully prejudiced statement. So too, 'your obvious distaste for emotional poetry...' That same 'obvious distaste' has fuelled many poems I have submitted to this site - most of which carry as much emotion as a 'cynic' can possibly muster.

I have not 'put the boot in to everyONE on WOL, any more than expressing my opinion should be considered a 'nuisance'. There are people who write on here who would benefit from many things. Not least, being given that constant disservice of someone telling them their poetry is 'nice' or 'it made me smile'. Nobody learns much from this. WHY did it make them smile? WHY do they think it's 'nice'. People should learn to seek constructive feedback.
Others should learn not to write coded 'poetry' that is disturbing and bordering on harassment - you know who you are.

IN MY OPINION - the overall quality of contributions to WOL has waned in recent months. That's MY OPINION. Ask yourself this. Why have once regular contributors to WOL NOT contributed for quite some time? If, as you say, WOL is home to 'professional' writers who contribute - who are they? If it's home to UN-talented writers. Who are they? I've never seen anyone yet described on here as 'untalented'?

There needs to be a Salmon in every stream.

In response to Darren's very 'poetic' comment ( I think it's great! ). My original vain of thought in starting off this thread, was down to the meaning of the word 'Catharthis' which in it's lowest - or maybe highest form - means defecation. Being caught between the realm of a background in Romantic poetry and existential philosophy, I regulary question the 'I' over 'time' and 'being', and how this affects the way that we write, purely for indulgence or to express, to put forth some message or to hide some message out of the sheer curiosity and the want to make others think.

In my view, but most will disagree ( so I'll stand back in the corner, like one of life's oddities - umm for about half an hour maybe, this is my afternoon off and the babes are asleep, and, I'm enjoying this immensely ) the act of writing a poem is a cathartic experience. Not, as in the popular sense as a splurge of emotion, but in the expurgation of ideas, thoughts and transferring the image in one's mind onto paper.

I personally feel a sense of relief on finally getting the words down on paper, whether or not I write from emotion or from the mind and research my subject. Am I just strange?

When i became aware that to write poetry i needed to stop what i was writing and think of the required elements for it to be a poem, i entered into the links provided on this website which relate to ''how to write a poem.'' what to include and what not to include. I'm still practising and probably will for some time to come if not forever in this lifetime. I certainly don't get it right all the time and whenever i attempt to write anything within the confines of a strict rhyme and meter poem, my senses go awol, my head befuddled and my equilibrium goes so far out the window i cannot concentrate or function properly. It's as if the air waves affect my antennae, a bit like a pigeon which gets lost and wavers from its route then is forced to land in a strange environment where it has to fend for itself or die of starvation or learn to rely on the kindness of others to survive.

For me, emotion and use of the five senses are essential ingredients to begin writing poetry or prose. Getting the balance right can be a painful experience but too little emotion can make something too melancholy for my liking. I love poetry which moves me in some way or reaches my senses to the point i can't wait to comment on it. If a poem or story jolts my memory in some way as some nostalgic words do then so much the better. We are all individuals and each has something to give and something to take away from the writings and the discussions on WOL, the secret is to learn to respect each others views and opinions with no need for insults or injury to those of us who want to learn and share what we do and our thoughts on the subject.

It's a pity that some of the ones who write and study because they have a passion for the subject of writing poetry can't or simply don't want to share their knowledge with a degree of understanding for the writers wishes with regards to the content. This kind of assistance needs discussion between the learned and dare i say novice?. The downside to any critique is that where there is a personal connection and/or knowledge of the writer, it is difficult for the one offering their critique to be objective. In my view, a good critic should be able to set aside their personal likes and dislikes in a poem and personal knowledge of the poet before going on to lend a hand.

Sorry it seems i went off the topic there but i suppose even critique has an element of catharsis to it.

As I am self-proclaimed untalented writer, could Darren perhaps suggest where I can find a site where 'talented' writers submit their work.

I am always willing to learn at the foot etc

Janet, who told you there had to be a 'handbook' for writing poetry? Did shakespeare, or blake or Coleridge, or Yeats or Wilfred Owen, not to mention a plethora of great poets, refer to the 'how to write poetry handbook?

has it come to the point that we need a handbook or a list of rules in order to write poetry, would love to say more but rescued by the school run before I stick my size 5 in my mouth.

Sorry Steve - anyone who 'self-proclaims' themself as 'untalented' has other issues that have nothing to do with poetry. Likewise those individuals who always say 'in my humble opinion' or 'it's not very good but...'. This self- effacing method of introduction always makes my toes curl...

Now, I'm off to a proper boxing match in Bolton. My young nephew is fighting his way out of a brown paper-bag.

Nicky- i simply wanted to know more about the basics of writing poetry and attempt to improve my technique. I did learn a lot from it but i also made many more mistakes as a direct result of it.
I think i've learned more from reading and taking note of others comments and critique as well as looking at the various styles.
I also read many poems by ''great poets.'' I have several downloads of the full works of poets such as Dylan Thomas, Elizabeth Barrett Browning, Maya Angelou, Berkowski etc... which i love to dip into and am a member of a website which has all the works of just about every poet you could ever mention or think of. Heck i can even read them in large print so i don't have put my specs on. Now there's a revelation.

I find that when i sit down and deliberately set out to write a poem it doesn't flow. I end up with several pages of waste paper, whereas when i sit and listen to my meditative cd's, the ink flows with my fingertips never leaving the pen and my attention never wavering from the page. Yes indeed there is much of myself in the writing in the sense of my experiences in life and my emotions but even i'm often surprised by the various other meanings which are often hidden.

As for 'coded messages.' Each person to read anything will have their own understanding of it and sometimes relate to something within a poem which they feel is personal to them or about them.
This can be a dangerous thing to do depending on how the message or meaning is perceived to be by the reader.
A classic example is a poem i posted on here which Winston commented on and said, ''you wrote it for me.''
I hadn't a clue what he was talking about but if it meant something to him, who am i to argue? I didn't actually set out to write a poem about him or indeed for him even though he thought i knew what it was about.It happened to coincide with an event in his life. That poem was also written shortly after a meditation and in about ten minutes flat. I think i only actually edited one word from it afterwards. See?
Catharsis from and for the soul or could it be more sinister?
I always thought people with a good head for detection were able to see beyond the written/spoken word and read between the lines effectively. Over zealous detection and over compensating often ends in confusion and the wrong conclusion. Believe me when i say i've done that myself in the past.

Interesting discussion this - doesn't feel finished yet. I wanted to come in to agree with Nicky - your 'no handbook' comment reminded me of the beginning of Dead Poets Society where the teacher gets the shocked pupils to tear the introduction out of their poetry textbooks. Janet's comments are also interesting and touch on other discussions about how poetry comes about and how we write.

I wasn't sure why it's wrong to describe oneself as untalented. If someone makes that judgment about themselves on what they feel is an objective basis, why shouldn't they be free to share it? I doubt whether Steve meant he was completely without talent - if he did he would be wrong as he has got some! But most of us on WOL are untalented compared to published poets and simply enjoy what we do and - perhaps - are learning to do it marginally better (or less badly).

And even an untalented poet may occasionally produce a gem.

I enjoy reading Dylan Thomas, Janet. I even once (about 23 years ago) played Rosie Probert in Under Milk Wood, and although very young, in the early years of adolescence, I thoroughly enjoyed it, - sounds a little odd I suppose thirteen year old playing the part of a whore, but used get get cast in the most outrageous parts - Pauline in Adrian Mole, Tallulah in Bugsy Malone and many more- all musicals except Under Milk Wood, which made a stark impression on me. Gave it up, should have stuck at it I suppose. Beat Anna Friel for the part of Tallulah, and other parts and look at her now,( she was at school with me and had the voice of an Angel) transformed from a freckly sweet kid to a star, sometimes I wonder why I took the Academic route, and gave it up all up at sixteen.

However, I digress from the point ( or do I? ) did you read the pobble Janet? If so what did you think?

I'm gone for a couple of hours and all hell breaks loose. Darren - I wasn't deriding your maturity when talking about freshers week. It is just that from memory there was an awful lot of 'copping off' went on during freshers week and you being a twice happily married man, would of course not be tempted by such goings on. I think you are being a bit over sensitive about what I said. Talent/Skill obviously varies across the site. I have no intention of naming anyone who I feel is lacking and if I did would probably be at odds with you and everyone else on this thread since it would merely be my opinion, based on my own personal taste in poetry.
I would agree that the standard of poetry has dipped since I joined the site in May. I see less outstanding poetry and certainly see a lot of poems that are bits of nothing - am not quite sure why the poets have bothered to post them. I have blamed this decline on the proliferation of blogs - some of us perhaps concentrating on quantity rather than quality. I may be wrong of course and expect the masses to now jump up and down on me for voicing this belief. I would just like to say that I am far more tolerant and supportive of a mediocre poet who posts thoughtful poetry occasionally than a mediocre poet who blitzes the site with crap - though I accept that 'crap' is a subjective substance.

Is it my imagination, but haven't we got back to the Discussion from July/August, relating to Good/Bad poetry? which became a tad acrimonious.
What happened to the catharsis question?

For Darren - when I describe myself as untalented, I should perhaps have said that I have no pretentions of being talented.

I shall now leave the 'Discussions' section alone.

Don't be over sensitive Steve - discussion is like this - you just have to develop a thick skin - mine is starting to feel like a rhinos - your opinions are valid ones which should be heard.
Going back to talented/no talented. As well as the subjectivity of the whole question there is also a 'degree' question. If I was to name who I thought was truly talented on this site I would probably come up with only a handful of names - many of whom, funnily enough, haven't posted for a while. The remainder have flashes of brilliance but not the consistency of a potential professional.
Luckily for me, I enjoy poetry that engages me - makes me think or feel. It doesn't always have to be perfect for me to do that. I can think of poets on here who are revered for their technical competence and style but who leave me stone cold. My own poetry is far from perfect but I am happy if the odd person out there enjoys it. I would never like to flood the site with it however - cos I realise that it isn't to everyone's taste. I just wish others could understand that concept.
Yes - we have moved away from the original question Steve - but it doesn't hurt to follow the flow of thought now and again.

Darren - if I got it wrong about you not liking emotional poetry, then I am sorry - I will have to take it on trust that many of your poems have been inspired by emotions since you tend to wipe them off your profile and have only been posting prose recently.
I remember a nice one you wrote about fishing on a pond - was it with your father? From memory, a lot of thought is given in your poetry to structure and it kind of feels restrained. I am a bit of a splurger and to like to feel a bit of passion and abandonment - only in my poetry of course...I take your point that some cathartic poetry can be overly self- indulgent - particularly if the poet gets hung up on the one theme. Clearly lines have to be drawn or alternatively we have to accept that we are all just different.

I just want to say ' FOR FUCKS SAKE!' ( now that's rare coming from me, mum of four that was dragged up a catholic ). On reading the comments I feel like the referee in a table tennis tournament. I started this thread, and didn't realise it would be a bitching match between everybody, and boil down to who writes good poetry and who writes bad poetry. And Isobel - no offense but a certain phrase in your last comment would probably offend nearly all the participants of writeoutloud. Some people write all the time and submit their poems offering them up like lambs to the slaughter, for these people writing becomes their life partner, something that they may lean on and gives them a purpose for whatever reason, and have a flash of brilliance here and there. Others, write all the time and only offer a few that they think are their flashes of brilliance that they think are good for fear of CRITICISM. Does that make the poet a good poet? I think that maybe the majority of these, are the poets that are insecure and unsure about their writing, ( with the exception of the poetic genius- but who says who the poetic genius is?). Have you ever read the diary of a poet? And whose to say that the poet who posts the most won't one day end up Poet Laureate from his/her sheer experience of the site and dogmatic effort? If one does not like a poem then tell the poet why (was going to to write FOR FUCKS SAKE again then but I suppose once in a night is enough - well twice now - I am pushing the boat out) or don't comment at all, but don't nip a budding poet's development in the bud so to speak, there are ways of criticising poetry without causing offense. I can take it, maybe because criticism is my job, but I feel that this site was not set up to put people's effort at poetry down, but to encourage people to write.

I am amazed at you all. Anyway back to catharsis.

As a mum of four dragged up protestant, I will protest a little further. For FUCKS SAKE Nicky - I am entitled to my opinion, just as Darren and you are. I would not like to repress anyone from developing their talent or using the site to get constructive feedback - (though too often I find that people aren't seriously looking for critical feedback). I am merely suggesting that posting several poems a week is not a good way of doing things - and I am not alone in thinking that. The quality of one's poetry tends to take a down turn and people switch off to reading it. Far better to concentrate on one or two that we have really put some sweat into. This is of course just my opinion. You are quite entitled to disagree but can we please leave all the effing out of it?

The effing went as soon as I expressed it Isobel, and it was in 'inverted commas' so i pretend it doesn't count. It was not directed at you, but at the overall genre of the discussion. I am trying to get asylum seekers and refugees to enter their poems on this site because I believe that it is a site for all, but from the direction the discussion took I fear that they may be eaten alive, and we may scare them off.

Actually, I enjoyed the effing ( very cathartic!) and I hope you did not take offense - I actually thought from your comments on discussion threads that you wouldn't. A rhino has very tough skin you know. I am now off to try and edit a poem called 'sunshine on my chair' or should I call it sunshine on my ass!', and finish compiling a booklet of poetry for my session tomorrow. Think a glass of red wine is in order! lol.

I suppose most poets aren't paid for their work and those that sometimes are have to do a "real job" to pay their way. In a way this gives some support to the cathartic element; as if we were all writing poetry for money (ergo professionally) we may need to feel that we were good at it in order to engender more business. After all no-one should pay for crap.
Having said that, why do we all write and offer it onto a public site?
Obviously it's for criticism, support, others observations and comment. Surely if we weren't able/willing to receive feedback we wouldn't do it.
I for one welcome feedback (although as I have said more than once on here, I'll never change anything after I'v posted it) and that feedback is a little cathartic, whether I like it or not.
Even the openly aggressive, angry, rants are cathartic. After all what is more cathartic than getting something off your chest.
I will never perform my work, but thoroughly enjoy posting and reading on WOL. Sorry if that isn't on the message of the site.
There are bullies in every walk of life and there are many in publishing. If only one of my pieces of poetry is ever published, I will be amazed and really pleased.
My catharsis within poetry is like waiting for a fish (another passion of mine) when it bites it's like electricity, followed by the knowledge that I did my best to capture the words.

It wasn't so much the effing as the vehemence of your comment which took me aback Nicky. As you well know, I like to eff myself now and again - or perhaps I should rephrase that! I'm not sure that any thread really needs an umpire or adjudicator. It is the nature of discussion that we will disagree, through listening to others alter our original thoughts or just agree to disagree. As I have said before - I often comment on and enjoy poetry that isn't technically perfect - nor would I rate my own as being particularly outstanding. The only thing I personally like to see is a little restraint in blogging. A concentration on quality rather than volume and a generosity in feedback equal to personal input. If you can inspire that in the asylum seekers you introduce to the site, that would be wonderful. Having said that, I don't make the rules - there are no rules - so if you disagree - that's your prerogative.
Graham. although the site encourages performance poetry, you are right to say that it should cater for all. Poetry is primarily a written medium - the fact that we can take it one step further at WOL venues is brilliant - but it shouldn't discourage those not inclined to do so. Page poetry is a lot easier to appreciate. The words, the skill can be re-read, savoured, appreciated more. Performance poetry is so easily affected by the skill of delivery - a so so poem can come across quite well - perhaps that is why I like it - LOL.
I've had my quota of red wine for the night - time for bed said Zeberdee...

Nicky, I can honestly say I didn't find your comment harsh or offensive, and even if it had of been I have broad enough shoulders to take it. As for HOW I control my creativity, it is ineffable. I sit down to write with a glass of water and a bit of background music....Vivaldi's Autumn today....very appropriate given that yesterday was the 1st day of autumn...I tend to look at what has been sucessful before, either in print or when performed/read, and then looks at ways I can emulate that in a new/topical/current subject area.

Isobel, I agree that writing for self or audience does not have to be seperate. I enjoy letting my imagination take me to places when thinking about plots/characters/scenarios/rhythym/rhymes, even if I happen to be walking down the street getting lost in my thoughts too close to a busy roadway....but thats' another topic.

I must say as well following Nicky's comment about catharsis being 'expurgation' I have mused on it for a moment or two.Certainly is cartharsis is putting ideas on page then I am guilty. I've just always thought of catharsis being more personal and theraputic.

At last - another full-blooded, red-blooded discussion thread! About time too. Who cares if it goes off at various tangents, most decent discussions do.

Is all poetry created from catharsis? I couldn't possibly answer that question. Is all my poetry (if you could loosely term it poetry) created from catharsis - no, unless there's something subliminal going on that I'm unaware of. Is some of my poetry created from catharsis - yes. (Some is also probably created from cat's arses too.) I would certainly liken a lot of the things I've written to the voiding of my bowels - the end product anyway.

There have been some good and interesting points made by contributors to this thread. I think it's relevant to look at not only why we are writing poetry, but who we are writing it for. For me that makes a huge difference. I see a lot of poetry on this site of the "me, me, me" variety. It is written from the first-person singular perspective, mostly autobiographical and probably had some therapeutic value to the author in writing it. I have written stuff like this myself. Most poets seem to start off by writing this type of poetry. When it's well done and original it can be illuminating and entertaining; when it isn't it can be boring and repetitive to everyone but the author. Anyone who has ever attended any kind of creative writing classes will probably be familiar with the phrase "write about something you know." Yes, writing about ourselves is a great starting point to loosen those arthritic brain cells, but (WARNING - CONTROVERSIAL STATEMENTS COMING UP - WARNING!) to continue to do this in every poem one writes is, quite simply, vain, lazy, and showing a lack of any imagination. Do people really think that any potential audience is interested in reading poem after poem about the author?

Poets, if they have any degree of ambition, ought:

a. To consider their motives for writing, and,
b. To consider who they are writing for.

If they are writing only for theirselves and not considering an audience, then for me that's not poetry but simply literary therapy.

Take a random look at the blog section of this site. Go on, I did! How many "me" poems are there? Scary isn't it? I'm not saying no one should ever write "me" poetry, but if it's just another "my boyfriend/girlfriend's legged it with someone else and I feel like s***e" (or similar) what's new or entertaining about that? We've all been there and know how it feels. Unless it's incredibly insightful, well written and brilliantly original it's never going to be great poetry - great therapy maybe.

Then there's the " I can write some prose, chop it up into covenient line lengths and stanzas and therefore it must be poetry!" school of poets." "I write it and it's poetry because I say it is." I guess we can all do that. I know exactly what Darren means. To write poetry one has first surely to be able to recognise what poetry is - would a potter attempt to throw a jug without ever having seen any? Far too many "poets" these days seem never to have read any poetry other than their own.

I really admired Dave's thread re writing about historical figures, simply because it's not egocentric and requires some knowledge, insight and imagination.

As for the "I like your poem, it's nice" comments on blogs - I agree entirely. That's a coded message for " I've left you a comment and now you will feel obliged to leave me one." Let's all see how many inane and meaningless comments we can amass. Frankly I would much rather have someone rip something I've written to shreds and tell me why it's a**ewipe than get that kind of comment; at least I feel I might learn something from it. But then, not everyone wants to learn, and some seem decidedly undecided.

I also agree with Isobel. It is obvious that some posters use this site only as a mirror for their own egos. Let's face it, is there a cheaper form of vanity publishing - with built in feedback? "I'm going to post ten poems this week on the off-chance that someone might say something vaguely positive about one of them - especially if I chuck a few "that's nices" around."

I too feel that the quality of blog postings is inversely proportional to the number of poets/poems posted. But that is just an opinion - feel free to disagree vehemently.

To end, I would wish you to consider a short (and entirely fictional) poem in (modern) traditional form that concerns my local geographic area. No doubt some amateur psychologist will find that it stems from a deeply cathartic incident somewhere in my past.

The good folk who live in Coombe Martin
Have a custom you wouldn’t take part in.
Right in the main street
There’s a specially made seat
And a colander all have to f**t in.

Regards,

A.E.

"Janet, who told you there had to be a 'handbook' for writing poetry? Did shakespeare, or blake or Coleridge, or Yeats or Wilfred Owen, not to mention a plethora of great poets, refer to the 'how to write poetry handbook?"

No - because they all had an education that included "how to write poetry" among its curricula. Shakespeare would have learned how to write iambic pentameters at Stratford Grammar School; Coleridge, Yeats and Owen all went to University where they learned how to write verse as part of the curriculum. Blake too was not uneducated, and would have learnt at school and probably from looking at and reading popular ballads.

There were books on metrics around at the time all of them were writing.

The idea that it all comes naturally is, not to put too fine a point on it, absolute bollocks. Anyone can write poetry, but that doesn't mean you can't learn. Anyone can pick up the guitar, but it helps to learn a few chords while you're doing so,

Thanks for that Steve, i do agree with you. My own schooling included some poetry learning but i have to say not in secondary school. It was all in junior school and mostly because the headmaster enjoyed poetry himself. My memory of poetry in school is mainly climbing inside the words and phrases to glean something of what the poems were about. My headmaster has a lot to answer for. He was the one who influenced me to love poetry about cats. McCavity etc... I had to learn them parrot fashion for a school play twice in as many years.

The problem i have with creative writing classes is that most poets who have attended seem to create much the same style of poetry and i find it is often bland at best. I enjoy the poetry i write and really would attend a class if that class could teach me to write in a technically correct fashion without losing the emotions created and power within my work. To help me develop what is already there. Find me a class within Wigan and district that can provide that for me and i'd be there like a shot.

I went away from the topic yet again but who cares?
As someone already pointed out. It is discussion and views which can be enlightening as well as helpful in parts where the participants aren't slagging each other off.

Firstly I would like to apolgise to Isobel and anyone else who thought that my 'vehemence' on the subject of 'how dire the quality of poetry is on this site' and that 'there are only a handful of good poets and they don't post anymore', may have caused offense. I am usually a very placid and calm person, fun loving and love batting words backwords and forawards. However the crux of my vehemence stays true and I cannot waver from my deep-rooted belief of what this site is all about. And who gives anyone the 'right' to say whether a poem is good or bad, why can people not just give constructive criticism and the more experienced of you, help fledgling poets, rather than ignore them, or write some wishy-washy comment. I do not think of myself as a poet, and would love someone to rip one of my efforts to shreds and give an honest opinion ( and I hope that someone will take me up on that ). I am quite surprised at the words that have poured out of ME in the past five weeks (- I feel that I have spasms of creativity, and I just have to snatch a few minutes here and there which may last for a few hours a day or a week and then I fall dry ) since I joined this site, through recommendation may I add. Who said that this would be ideal and that I could get some constructive feedback, which I hope the majority of writers on this would like -correct me if I am wrong.

As steve stated, the plethora of 'greats' all had a university education, or got taught how to use the Iambic pentameter or Iambic tetrameter and notice the difference between them, and to identify the difference between lyrical, conversational, discoursive poetry etc etc, and differentiate between an ode and a sonnet etc etc. Does that make a good poet?

Nicky, these discussion threads are renowned for getting the blood flowing and occasionally boiling as the passion for poetry and individual likes and dislikes come to the fore.
You should only apologize if you truly feel you upset someone as a direct result of your words and actions.

As for your last question. I don't think anyone here could tell anyone what a good or a bad poem is. It is all subjective and some conjecture is inevitable as we all feel differently. We all seek poetry for a number of reasons much the same as our music tastes will differ, so will our taste in poetry.

I read Pobble by the way and found it a delightful read. I know nothing of whether it is written in a traditional form. I thoroughly enjoyed the content, silly as some of it is.

Nicky - discussion threads give us the right to express our opinions - people can choose whether or not they agree and are quite entitled to express their disagreement, as you and I have. I feel that the comments I made, which you have decided to incorrectly quote, have been taken out of context and thus made to appear far worse than they were intended. At all times I stressed that 'talented' and 'untalented' poetry was subjective. When I talked about 'a handful of truly talented poets', I qualified that by identifying such talent as consistent and potentially professional. I think it is quite fair to say that the majority of poets on here are not consistently brilliant. You may argue otherwise...

Anthony/Nicky - I see eye to eye with you on many issues but not all. It is clear that people post on blogs for a variety of reasons. Some wish to improve and put their work up for serious critique. Others write for pure enjoyment or catharsis, not inviting or welcoming harsh feedback or wanting to have their work hacked away at. Before criticising work, we should all be sure of just what that particular poet wants. Both approaches are perfectly acceptable. I am only bemused by people who invite criticism and then can't handle it when it is given.
I enjoy cathartic work a lot more than Anthony. It touches me - I can often identify with the poet - perhaps that is more of a feminine trait. Poetry is an escape for me - the rest of my life revolves around other people - my poetry is for me. If that makes me selfish and my poetry narrow - people have the choice to take it or leave it, as you have pointed out Nicky. Cathartic poetry only gets a bad name when the same theme is bashed out repeatedly with little thought for new ways of expressing an age old theme.
As individuals, we will all have very different tastes and opinions on how things should be done. As friends we should learn to live with that - it would be a very boring world and site if we all felt the same way and were in total agreement.

Anthony - perhaps you were toilet trained on a leaky potty or forced to wear crotchless nappies as a child....Who knows what could have inspired that masterpiece - an enjoyable piece of catharsis none the less.

Carrying on the present thread ( ran out of text space ), that does not mean everyone that has had the opportunity to have a university education can write a poem, and also means that the people who have not had the opprtunity of a university education can't write a poem, there is something that is within oneself, call it what you want, I don't have a particular name for it. Some say that people ( by that I mean everyone ) is born with a certain instinct, or a certain aptitude for something, whether that is numerical, literary, scientific or artistic, do we not say that someone who manages people( for example a busy call centre or a successful corporate has a talentbfor dealing with people? Did he/she get taught that in school or at uni? In my opinion ( and as has been pointed out - freedom of speach etc etc ) I would like to say that everyone has talent - which is basically the aptitude to learn and the 'want' to 'do' something, which develops as they mature and they choose the direction that they enjoy the most.

So pulling this back before I twitter on forever, those of you experienced WOL users, please don't put down the efforts of people who are just finding an aptitude for writing. Why not turn your disregard into to helping these fledgling writers.

Secondly, does using personal pronoun 'I' and the oblique form of it 'me' in poetry necessarily mean that the writer is talking about themselves?

The comments that I quoted were not necessarily from what you said Isobel, but from the whole thread of the last twenty or so comments that have been made. Will reply to you properly when I do not gave to dash out the door on a school run. Hate to be late, my six year old starts to worry that I am not going to pick him up. Bless!

By the way, that was beautifull put Isobel. I think words sometimes have the tendency to run away with us, and can often be taken out of context, how ever well we may/or may feel that we express ourselves, just as a poem can mean something to one reader but something entirely different to the next reader.

The very intuitive Janet has started a 'tear and share' thread so that those who would like to recieve constructive criticism can pyt up their offering to be ripped to shreds and then put back together
again. (wish I had thought of that Janet - maybe there should be some link within the site that offers the opportunity for those who want to put their poems up for criticism, and those who like ripping poetry apart, looking for meaning - sometimes that may not be there for a reason - and then helping to put them back together again).

There is, and has always been (as far as I am aware) a section of the site where those wishing detailed critique can post their work:

http://www.writeoutloud.net/public/newsgroupsview.php?NewsGroupsID=28

You will find it further down the discussions list. For whatever reason; probably because it's a little hidden away, people seldom use it. It seems it has become the convention to use the blog space to read and comment on the work of others. I guess the thinking being that more people will see it there, and possibly wish to comment.

I have found commenting on the work of others to be a minefield. I freely admit that I'm no expert, and (are there poetry experts?) but have always been willing to offer what I would like to think is constructive and objective opinion when requested, and as far as my ability allows. Equally, I am more than happy to receive the same. I may be labouring under a totally misguided apprehension - but I was under the impression that this was a poetry site, for the posting, reading and discussion and dissection of all matters poetic. As such it could be likened to electric graffiti - writers are posting their work to a forum where anyone with access to the internet can read it. In doing this they should be aware of the possible consequences, i.e. not everyone will admire/enjoy what they are posting, neither should they be expected to. Having said this, posting on the blog, by established convention, is surely inviting comment. Why would anyone post anything here if not to use it as a kind of testing ground to gauge opinion? In courting that opinion and by posting here a certain element of realism is needed. A realistic expectation that not all the comments you invite by posting will be simperingly flattering. A realistic expectation that other contributors will be honest with their opinions. And a realistic expectation that those who clearly solicit opinion on their work are not going to have a public tantrum at the first sniff of anything but universal praise. I speak from experience.

I have never had any desire to "rubbish" anyone's poetry. That's not to say that I don't enjoy the work of some poets much more than others and have my own opinions on the quality of various poems - doesn't everyone?

Yes Nicky, I agree that all aspiring poets should be encouraged - we all thrive on it. I also concur that there are some with perhaps innate abilities in different fields - otherwise we would all be either rubbish or brilliant at everything. I don't want to get into the nature/nurture debate here, it's far to broad a subject. (By the way, in my experience most of the "managers" you quote in your example have a simple talent for taking up otherwise useful space.)

The attitude that I am at a loss to understand is that of those who clearly have an ability and interest in a subject, yet who profess that they have no desire to polish that ability. Oh well, it takes all sorts I guess.

As for your personal pronoun question; for me the answer is no - I or me is sometimes completely ficticious, but more often than not, among the fledgling poets you allude to, this is a rare occurence. We cut our poetic teeth on our own experiences. Some poets are able to "imagine" theirselves out of this eventually, others never seem to be able to.

I would like to state, for the record, that the writer of this discussion thread contribution only exists in my imagination . . .

Anthony is right where he says there is already a forum for critique on poems. It's called Poetry Review. Also set up as Paul mentions in another thread was one called Write Club, initially set up with the idea of sending a poem to Dermott Glennon, and then after the review was finished another would be posted.
It seemed to be going well but the rules were too stuffy in my opinion in that the author had little or no say in the critique offered. In Poetry Review much the same happened. The main problem being the ones offering their critique began to slag each other off and generally confuse the poor poet in the process.

I posted one anonymously and was delighted with the end results. It made me wonder if not knowing the poet made a difference as to how the critique was presented. Not a single insult thrown and a good range of comments which were happily received and points taken on board. If all critique was presented this way life would be much simpler for everyone without the need for anyone to be unnecessarily upset.

I've been guilty of displaying a tantrum and going off in a huff and removing poems because of critique or comments which hurt at the time. With more time to think about it i realized that what was said was most likely accurate. My own experiences of being hurt or too sensitive have helped me to consider the feelings of a poet when presenting my own comments. If others did the same the site would be a happier place to be. Unfortunately some just wade in, say their bit then don't bother to reply when asked for a clearer explanation.
I'm not throwing accusations at anyone in particular here, it's a fact which poets asking for critique should be aware of.
I won't make excuses for my sensitivity, it is a part of me. All i've ever asked for when asking for critique is for the critic to be gentle in their approach. Not too much to ask surely?

The tear me share me thread is open to anyone who wants to give critique or do a re-write or advise on how if possible the poem i offered up can be made into a traditional or other form and structure. It is for my benefit as much as anyone else who cares to have a go at it or just to observe what they can expect if they too decide to post a poem for review.

Anthony- i do realize that your comments on this thread weren't particularly directed at me. I have always welcomed and invited your considered comments and critique and adjusted when i felt it was right for the poem and my intentions for the poem. You have a way with wording your comments which do not offend.
I'm aware also that some people think i'm being awkward when i don't take their advice but there has been occasions when contemptuous and veiled insults have been included in some critique. Obviously these are the times when i feel upset and entitled to remove whatever i want. There's also been many times when comments have been placed and i've mistaken them for something other than their good intentions. I might be intuitive but i'm also human with all the human traits like sulky, pleased, angry, happy. Usually depends on the moon. That's my excuse and i'm sticking to it. :-)

And again the topic sways due to Janet. Sorry! xx

Finally! Thank you Anthony. Now I feel (in the modern sense) cathartic! I thought that maybe I was writing twaddle, caught here in the middle of so many educated and creative people, of whom a few - and may I add it is only a minor percentage - before you all take up your keypads and shoot me down. ( If I didn't have thicker skin than Isobel's Rhino - no handbags at dawn Isobel!! - mine's like that of an Elephant. LOL ).

I agree with your comments, and it's nice to hear someone mention the Imagination, other than me. Which sometimes makes me wonder if people who write sometimes lose their way and forget where the images they put down on paper come from. Poems create a picture or trigger an emotion, which brings me back to the original question when I started this thread about catharthis. It seems like aeons ago, when I innocently asked if anyone else thought that writing poetry ( and that is all poetry ) was a cathartic experience. Not just a purging of emotion but a cleansing of our Imagination/thoughts/creativity etc.

Is there no-one else on this site that heaves that big sigh of relief when they have finally finished a poem, or a paper, or an article? I didn't start this thread to discuss bad poetry or good poetry, - though I suppose that discussions do go off at tangen - which makes for good discoursive commentary, which is healthy and keeps our fallible minds active.

There has been times when i've felt absolutely exhausted after writing a poem. Is this the kind of catharsis you speak of Nicky?

It most definately is.

And the 'I' catharthis, is much like the 'I' in the imagination ( I am sure that someone will disagree with me ). And you finished and clarified the point in such a wonderful down to earth way Janet. And as much as I love discussion and go off at a tangent - as all of us do all of us - I despaired and was (very literally) haunted by the fact that out of all the 'educated and talented' people here on WOL no-one could grasp the concept of my comment, and stuck consistantly to the modern meaning of the word in literary form

It has been a thread that began from a poem I posted, that I class as my best offering - 'Catharsis', my flash of 'something', which I will put on your thread Janet, because I would love for it to be criticised. It descended into toilet activities, digressed a little, developed into a table tennis match, the outcome of which was 'Handbags at dawn' (Russel if you read this, I thought it was such a wonderful image that I laughed out loud - much to the chagrin of my better half who thinks I am 'internerding' haha), resulting in now, a very cathartic feeling on my part.

<quote>As steve stated, the plethora of 'greats' all had a university education, or got taught how to use the Iambic pentameter or Iambic tetrameter and notice the difference between them, and to identify the difference between lyrical, conversational, discoursive poetry etc etc, and differentiate between an ode and a sonnet etc etc. Does that make a good poet? </quote>

Not on its own, no, and it doesn't have to be a university education (neither Shakespeare nor Blake nor John Clare had university educations) - but learning about technique helps you to control the words on the page so they really are "the best words in the best order" (Coleridge)

You can learn it from books, you can try it out yourself, you can write poems that you know are mere exercises not to be shown to anyone (rather like practising scales, or doing colour studies in art), or you can just pick it up by reading a lot of poetry closely and working out how they came to do things.

However you do it, there is an element of learning involved. And sometimes (pace Janet) you have to sit through some boring poetry because at least you're learning something. I know that among some elements of the working class, learning is seen as a bad thing, but not in the working class family I came from.

The question is - “Is ALL poetry created from CATHARSIS”?

Having had the time to think about this (instead of enjoying the fruits of ‘Freshers’) I’ve arrived at the following conclusion…how formal does THAT sound!?

‘Catharsis’ is one of those words that many of us are familiar with. It’s also a word that is often misunderstood - or whose concept is defined with subtle nuances by various lexicographers and their respective publications. For example: ‘The New International Webster’s Comprehensive Dictionary of the English Language - Encyclopedic Edition‘ - no less! Defines it in medical terms as ‘purgation or cleansing of any passage of the body’. It briefly mentions ‘Aristotle’ and suggests that catharsis is ‘a word used by him to express the effect of tragic drama in purifying and relieving the emotions’. ‘Purgation’ ‘Purgative’ ‘Purifying’ also seem to be common words used in an attempt to define the concept of ‘catharsis’.

However, I have never relied on an American dictionary to define my English Language anymore than I’ve relied on a cheque arriving in the post.

The Oxford English Dictionary however, defines ‘Catharsis’ as - “n. 1. the process of relieving pent-up emotions for example through drama 2. Medicine. Rare purgation”.

For me personally, the focus relies on the phrase ‘pent-up’ , which the O.E.D subsequently defines as ‘closely confined or held back’. I’m sure other publications will have their own interpretation of just what constitutes a catharsis - but the important over-riding factor is ‘pent-up’ or ‘held back’ or any other synonym we can associate with these two concepts. In much the same way that individuals bottle their intense feelings or emotions inside after an event such as a family death. When they finally ‘break down’ - this is a classic catharsis.

This is why I think that much of what a poet (or a writer) writes in the first instance, is penned from a build up of emotion that has occurred in their lives. This outpouring of grief, or happiness for that matter, is potentially what fuels a person’s motivation and their literary creativity. Once this ‘pent-up’ emotion has waned then many people feel that what they have to write about is no longer there ‘inside’ them. Some people, but certainly not all, will stop writing at or around this point. Others will continue to write and use the experience of their genuine catharsis to inspire them to write other things. These emotions are just that - emotions - but they’re hardly ‘closely confined’ or ‘held back’.
The more a person writes, the more diluted their initial cathartic emotions become. Unless, of course, there are other things occurring in their lives that are themselves contributing to emotions that are again ‘building-up’.

An individual’s poetry usually ebbs and flows. I know mine does. I’ve not written any emotive poetry for months. I could - but it would be for all the wrong reasons. However, I’ve recently been writing poetry that has little to do with ‘pent-up’ or ‘confined emotion’. This is poetry - but it’s not cathartic poetry.

I liken it to the following: Poetry is the emotive bottle. Catharsis is the fizzy pop inside the bottle. Shake the emotive bottle of poetry and release the fizz and contents of catharsis. When its empty - fill it with water. Shake again. No ‘pent-up’ fizz - but still poured from the emotive poetry bottle.

Is ALL poetry created from Catharsis? No. Only some.

A very detailed and clear explanation Darren...
Totally agree with you, and possibly a reason for me not writing anything or feeling inspired to for about six weeks now.

p.s. I like to use American, English and French Dictionaries ; )

Steven- i completely agree with you, especially with regards to education. I know it may seem that i'm rebelling against learning but it really isn't true. My brain is not equipped to soak up info but once i've read or experienced something, i can usually recall enough for my immediate needs. I do learn better from personal mistakes and brighter experiences too.
I was said to be quite clever when at school and when i enjoyed the subjects i was learning i was exceptionally good at them but not when i found them tedious and of no use whatsoever. To be completely honest, the only thing i can think of with regards to studying and learning that i regret is giving up the piano. Now my arthritic fingers would have difficulty with the scales and chords.

Taken that i would like to attempt some structured poetry. How about some suggestions from you educated people with regards to poetry of poems (a selection) to read which are an example of say- iambic tetrameter? Or other form with an example which would give me something to read and study. Perhaps one of the simpler forms to begin with. I love to read poetry but i admit i wouldn't recognize the form it takes.
Please, all donations welcome and i can easily find the poems myself. Thankyou.

Francine, i agree with you with regards to Darrens latest addition to this discussion thread. It is a well thought out and balanced entry with his own interpretation thrown in for interest and not a finger pointed in anyone in particulars direction. Very informative.

It is refreshing to see that this thread has reached the heady peaks of intelligent discussion rather than <quote 'handbags at dawn' unquote> , and that some of you now understand the angle that I was originally coming from when my battle with the word catharthis was reborn - I trailed through dictionaries Darren, and papers discussing linguistics, but couldn't find the answer to my question and can only theorise on how we define words from a subjective viewpoint, and how the interpretation of a word varies from one mind to the next.

Personally, I find that catharsis holds many more meanings than the popular interpretation of the word, as do many of the words we conversationally or discoursively use, commonly and out of context without a second thought of what that word means. I think that we should pay a liitle more respect to the 'word' that we take for granted. I magine a world without words.

I think that a call to my greek friends in Cyprus is in order.


Steve, I came out of a working class background, broken family and then extended - being the eldest of six ( and money was very tight back then, I would walk the 45 minute walk there and back across Oldham Edge in all weathers ( would not dare do it these days ) to save the 8p busfare, so that my mum and dad could put it into the shopping budget. Those were the days of Thatcherism.

My mum used to say that I had a midas touch (and that everything I touched turned to gold - ha wish it had!). When we are are born we are a blank sheet of paper, and carve the words of our life through experience, and perchance for the fortunate few they stumble across affinity with something.

I also love Darren's recent comment - for me it says it all in an eloquent, if rather large nut shell. I don't think it differs a whole lot from what was being said at the beginning of this discussion thread though. The point that you were trying to make Nicky was that the very act of writing poetry was catharsis - expunging of a need to write or communicate something be it emotional or otherwise. I also took that point on board a long time ago.
Nicky - I am delighted to learn that we share one more co-incidence though. You are the eldest of 6, whilst I am the youngest. We aren't related by any chance?

Isobel, you always manage to raise some kind of emotion in me. Do we need to check the family tree? Age? DOB? Oh my word, could we be twins that got split up at birth and mixed up with other newborns!! Haha.

And, yes, my take on catharthis is centred around the expunging of the Imagination and not neccessarily purge of emotion, even though I do appreciate the modern usage of the word.

Guess what! I'm in the middle of a family of six.
666. Does that mean we have the hallmark of the devil between us? ha ha.

Janet.x

How spooky! At least we all know how to share girls - a great way of learning how to hold your water too - one bathroom, 8 people - not the easiest way to grow up....Perhaps that's why I enjoy catharsis so much as an adult.

Kind of reminds me of the phrase, "When shall we three meet again?" Now I expect you will turn me into a frog or something . . . ;-)

Two nuts are arguing with each other...

'I'm a nut,'
'No I'm a nut.'

'Hold it! You're both poets.'

Both nuts retreated comfortably.

And I love nuts!
All varieties of them...

Cadbury's take 'em and they cover them in chocolate.
(personally i prefer hazelnuts)

Well you didn't really expect anything other than a cliché now did you? :-)


Anthony - we three ladies could be the witches of wolop wi'k.

OH I've missed out on the fun this weekend!

I like that, 'the witches of WOLOP' !

"Take care all ye who cross the catharthis of the witches of WOLOP!!"

Must go and check up on the spell books now, and stir my cauldren.

That reminds me of the six coloured hats that emphasise ones outlook on life, (called the 'de Bono hat system') and how we associate with things.

I wonder which coloured hat we are all wearing today? Thing I may have to go back and peruse over that. Interesting thought.

White hat - thoughts based in information and fact.
Red hat - thoughts based in feeling and emotion.
Black hat - based in critical judgement.
Yellow hat - thoughts based in the positive.
Green hat - based in new ideas
Blue hat - thoughts based in the conclusion of something.

Have a feeling that many of you may agree that we swap and change them throughout the day.

I'm wearing a leopard skin pill box hat!

Hubble, bubble, toilet trouble....what about the brown hat Nicky?
And how often might you change yours in a day?

Considering that I'm a piscean on the cusp of airies, which does not bode well. Indecisive and opinionated, in touch with the airy fairy and reality. I swop and change my hats regularly!! haha

Paul, where did you get that leopard print hat, need one to go with my leopard print coat, that everyone says I'll be wearing, threadbare when I'm ninety with my kitten heel boots and walking stick!

Feeling all fashion cathartic now, must go and root through my warderobes, hate to not be in with the current trend!lol.

How hilarious, can just picture us all there in our different coloured hats.

Ah but that's not fair Chris, if we have hats, we must have Ice cream, preferably chocolate with nuts.

I'm afraid my hat is virtual as I'm thinking out of the box(es).

"ice cream with nuts" - is that a cornet with poets?

Aha - as is the leopard print coat, and many of the ideas and thoughts that we cloak ourselves in.

cornet with poets? How would we explain that flavour to the usupsuspecting individual whose senses are assailed by a multitude of flavours when they initially take that first tantalisiing bite?

A little like the first tentative step into the world of WOL? rich and full of various subtle flavours and with the heartwarming crunch of nuts. lol.

Mine would have to be whipped ice cream, no chocolate sauce but a lovely big flake - only the crumbliest, tastiest....you can all sing the rest...

''...I'll get my coat!...''

repetition of the word piss?

Te-he-he. Just make sure that when you start to swing those handbags at dawn that you make sure they match your hats! haha.


There's nothing to say that repetion cannot be used in a poem, though. Sometimes maybe for effect, or to drive a point home, and a single word or phrase may weave it's course naturally through the thread of a piece.

I too like the word 'kerfuffle'. For some reason it always reminds me of an old, old joke where the punchline is '...and a muffled titter ran round the court.'

If the word had not already been appropriated for something else then a kerfuffle would have been a lovely word to describe a muffled titter. Well, IMHO.

: )

Jx

''...share cab fare- anyone?...''

I'm all in favour of 'driving a point home' - repeat to your hearts content Chris - I'm just loving the flow of thought - it certainly beats bickering...

Speaking of the appropriation of words for other uses - the book "The Meaning of Liff" (Douglas Adams & John Lloyd) does this admirably for UK place names. Some of my favourites are:

Symonds Yat - The cut-off top of a boiled egg.

Lusby - The bulge created on a woman's breasts by wearing a bra that's two sizes too small.

and from Wikipedia, because I can't remember them all:

Shoeburyness - T he vague uncomfortable feeling you get when sitting on a seat which is still warm from somebody else's bottom.

Abinger - One who washes up everything except the frying pan, the cheese grater and the saucepan which the chocolate sauce has been made in.

It's one of those "cheer you up" books for anyone who appreciates both words and silly humour, and I recommend it highly.

Regards,
A.E.

I always remember 'Kettering'....the marks left on your bum after sitting for a protracted period on a wicker chair.

: )

Jx

''FHHH'' one who what exits the door whenst being ignored.

There is a linguistic theory that suggests that all language emerged from a combination of onomatopoeia and synesthsia. The onomatopoeic stuff is easy to find, but the synesthesic is less obvious. Essentially it is trying to vocalise a different sense like errr...describing the 'size' of something. Early linguists would have been waving their arms around to describe the size of something and making a noise to accompany it. Try comparing the physical experience of saying 'LARGE' against the experience of saying and describing 'small'.

I think that most poetry is created from trying to describe physical sensations verbally and alot of that is derived from a sense of catharsis when having achieved that or 'got it out'.

Incidentally, repetition is the basis of many a great poem and a whole species of poems rely on it...

Ghazal
by Patrick Phillips


Last night I walked in a field. The moon
lit the snow: snow gray as the moon.



And tried to remember your face—Luna Moth,
circling the cold flame of the moon.



At the same moment you looked up, protracting
the old angle: self, secret-love, and the moon.



The earth was young too. But what’s left to say
about youth? What hasn’t been told to the moon?



One circles the other, swirling in a black pool.
Adiós, says the earth. Adieu, says the moon.



And like a child I think: How else would she follow me?
Whenever I turn: your face in the moon.



But love? Love is a coyote snarling your name,
gnawing its leg by the light of the moon.

: )

I love that poem...and I would guess that the last verse is derived purely from catharsis.


Jx

Onomatopoeia:
If it smells like a fart, feels like a fart, sounds like your doing all the farts!

Hi John

Very interested to see you use a Ghazal as an example of repetition in poetry. The only ghazals on this web site I have seen so far are my own! Do you know if this author has written others and where i can see more of his work as there seems to be so few Ghazals written in English.

Thanks Winston

Hey Winston, try this....

http://www.ghazalpage.net/

and this....

http://www.storysouth.com/poetry_features/2006/08/phillips_poems.html

Not Ghazals...but lovely anyway.

Tommy, try Alka Seltzer!

: )

Jx

Synesthsia: Sounds like a fart, feels like a fart, smells like a fart- probably a knock at the door!

: )

Jx

John, how beautifully described.

Synesthsia, blows a huge crater in the notions of catharthis (adhered to by many in the literary and psychological trends) in modern terminology, as an outlet of emotion that results in some kind of relief. When in effect the act of searching for the correct word(s) to describe or accentuate someone, something, some feeling or concept is a cathartic experience in itself. As I stated way back in the initial phases of this thread, the simple (or sometimes not so simple as it causes brainboggling regularly) act of finding the words and transferring these words from our conscious mind (or imagination), in some kind of creative form, is a pure cathartic experience, that is not necessarily emotional.

The Synaesthetic Hour Starts With

Learning the alphabet again,
but this time with Richard of York.
Smelling the onion in your name,
seeing the personality
in your hair, with it’s dense wave of chestnut.

Static from the vinyl throws a
hundred tiny stars in my eyes.
Overwhelming, the white fl ashes
taste a little like fresh monk fi sh
and I drown in the noise of our new start.

You say to take a minute but
as I sit and count to sixty
I hear a symphony start up
and I can’t sit still so I take
your hand in mine and we dance till noon’s song.

Oh Pooh!! - (have turned over mellow fresh green leaf ) now I ain't gonna get any bloody work done (oops started with good intentions) - with cross-sensory metaphors gibbering in my head!

Very clever john, particularly like the personality in your hair, and the static from the vinyl, wonder what we could do with fridges, washing machines and the mop bucket?

Lovely poem John. Did you just 'knock that off' on the subject there and then? I wish I could do that.

My wife and one of my sons are both a bit dyslexic but also a bit synaesthesic. I think there may be a connection between the conditions in some people. My son, amongst other things, definitely smells colours and my wife sees numbers as different colours. There is a long history of synaesthsic writers (Nabokov for one) and composers (Leonard Bernstein, Sibelius, Stevie Wonder) and some scientists believe all our senses bleed together to a certain extent...it's just unusual to see music as vivid colours, or smell it...but most people can feel it though. (Although there is a not so rare condition where some people can't actually hear music...not 'tone deafness', they just don't experience music as something musical. It may even be called 'amusia'...which would be funny if it was! I'll go look it up)

Blimey...it is!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amusia

If a poem is beautiful enough to evoke say, the smell of new mown hay, the damp encroaching evening or the breath of cows, like Ted Hughes 'Full Moon and Frieda' does for me then I guess its effect has been synaesthesic...

A cool small evening shrunk to a dog bark and the clank of a bucket -
And you listening.
A spider's web, tense for the dew's touch.
A pail lifted, still and brimming - mirror
To tempt a first star to a tremor.

Cows are going home in the lane there, looping the hedges with their warm
wreaths of breath -
A dark river of blood, many boulders,
Balancing unspilled milk.
'Moon!' you cry suddenly, 'Moon! Moon!'

The moon has stepped back like an artist gazing amazed at a work
That points at him amazed.

Ted Hughes

Bloody genius!

: )

Jx