Generally I agree with you completely. They stand as finished if they've been unmessed with for a certain length of time.I tend to keep mine either in a notebook or in my drafts on my email, when I've mucked around with them enough and I like them, I post them,or if they're in danger of turning into short stories I sometimes do abandon them for months. I literally abandoned one this morning though, wrote it a few days ago, blogged it then a horrid feeling that I'd nicked an image from a poem on here swept over me. Unconsciously like, I wouldn't steal something on purpose so I removed it till I can guarantee it wasn't plagiarised. Horrible feeling though. Real hot shame.Anyone ever had that happen?

I've never had that feeling with a whole poem - after all - there are only so many themes you can write about and we all go over the same ground. I have got that feeling about certain lines in poems - wondered whether I have lifted it without realising. It is a horrible feeling cos you would hate for another poet to read it and think you had done it deliberately.

Re amending poems afterwards. Once I've posted a poem, I tend to forget about it. Up until posting, it is revised and revised again. Often I know the lines that I'm not quite happy with, that could be improved on. In the end you just have to give up the ghost else you wouldn't ever start any new poetry.

T'was an image. Just the one, but it bothered me. I have actually had a look in that cunning little search bar to see if the line is anywhere in a blog and I can't find it so I must be worrying about nothing. Anyone recognize 'an iodine stained' sky?

'an iodine stained sky'? nope...not heard that one before...but there's a wonderful John Haitt song called 'Lipstick Sunset' which I've always fancied pinching. Personally I think the majority of poems posted on WOL aren't edited or worked on enough and they turn up as well worn themes strung together with a pile of hackneyed cliches. Clearly I don't mean any of us.

For me one of the main points of poetry is to try and say something in a different way that adds something to the canon, rather than merely replicates it. Like Izzy nearly said...'going over the same old ground...and have you found...the same old fears?' (Pink Floyd - Wish You Were Here) Poetry is most often preoccupied with describing the human condition and existential fears, and those are pretty much universal. I'd much rather read a poem that tries to capture or describe say, that moment when a group of diners are trying to divvy up the bill after a meal out...and it doesn't add up...than their experiences walking on the fells or getting divorced. If they can capture all three events in 14 lines (well) then brill! But if not then give us something new...please.

I have abandoned many a poem and then used one line, sometimes one word, in a subsequent poem. That is how I cope with accepting that the original was stillborn...but its DNA can survive... and live on.

JMHO

:)

Jx

Hi everyone, i'm certainly no expert when it comes to editing my own poems but i do try. Very often, i'll post a poem for feed-back when i've edited it till i'm sick of it. Often, other poets can see almost instantly how much stronger or better it can be because they aren't as close to it. Having said that, if their ideas don't feel right to me, then i have to stick with it or leave it for a while to maybe edit again at a much later date.
I've recently been reading some of my poems from last year and seen ways to improve them. I guess that comes with learning and reading many other poets works too.
It's a continuous process for me. ;-)

One thing i do think about quite a lot is how a poet feels reading their own work a couple of years or so after they've been published. (Published in the real sense that is) It can't be changed then can it!

On the whole i agree with Isobel. There has to be a line drawn somewhere or we get bogged down and stop writing altogether.

Rachel- I'm not absolutely positive but i think i've seen that 'iodine sky' line too somewhere.
Do you read Steve Garside's poems?
Seems like the kind of line he would use though i doubt it's still on the site if it was one of his.

Finished? probably only if they get published.
Abandoned? Never! Abandoned suggests to me that it gets scrapped.

Did Leonardo revisit the Mona Lisa and give her that hint of a smile?
Would Paul McCartney re-work Yesterday to bring it into Credit Crunch Britain?
Should Big Ben be fitted with a Quartz digital movement?
I don't think so somehow.
Surely poems are like children that have gone out into the big wide world. You can no longer protect them and keep giving them new clothes to wear. They eventually have to stand on their own two feet.
Otherwise they become sad middle-aged mummies boys who still wear knitted jumpers.

PS. Rachel.

When I type 'iodine stained sky' into Google...the first hit is about the diagnosing of Chlamydia!

: )

'Iodine Sky' is also the last track on the album 'Cruel Melody' by a band called Black Light Burns. See lyric below...

'I've seen good people bleed...
And I thought I'd seen it all...
But my own two eyes would prove me wrong that day.

There are things that I've done...
Only seen by the sun...
And those things will be buried in my grave.'

Hmmm...not bad, but I reckon you could use your phrase without fear of accusations of plagiarism...what with it not appearing in the song at all.

Personally I like Oscar Wilde's dictum 'Talent borrows...genius steals' and have you ever heard Tom Leherer's wonderful song 'Lobachevsky'?

It contains the wonderful verse....

'I am never forget the day I first meet the great Lobachevsky.
In one word he told me secret of success in mathematics:
Plagiarize!

Plagiarize,
Let no one else's work evade your eyes,
Remember why the good Lord made your eyes,
So don't shade your eyes,
But plagiarize, plagiarize, plagiarize -
Only be sure always to call it please 'research'.'

: )

Jx

Thanks for that John. In which case I'll sneak it back on at some point. I love Tom lehrer, years ago I used to sing the Masochism Tango in local folk clubs. :)
Janet, I don't think I have read his stuff, but I will now.
Love the mummies boy poems image Graham.

Tom Lehrer! Wonderful. "Be prepared, that's the boy scout's solemn creed....."

On Chris' (serious) point, for me it is a matter of 'balance'. Words insist on being written. Then I fiddle around with them. Then at a certain point it feels like there is balance. And then that's that usually.

I edit hugely! I would reckon I end up keeping less than 20%...sometimes nothing, from the original draft. Martin was 50 or 60 lines long...and then it was hack, change, chuck, change, chuck, hack fiddle fuckabout.

With the odd honourable exception I find most poems on WOL could lose a fifth or even a third and be vastly improved. But that's just me. I don't bother suggesting that to anybody here anymore...they seem to think I'm telling them to chop the arms off their babies.

I can't remember who first said it but, 'never apologise, never explain' would be a good maxim for many a poet. Too many wannabee poems have too much explanation...IMHO.

:)

Jx

oh dear oh dear! I write my poems in five minutes and then post them! This is the story of my life at the moment! BUT . . I've only been writing for a short while and so it may change with me. At the moment it's like falling in love. I just fear that when the excitement has worn off I might stop writing. What will I do then? What did I do before? Can't remember! I just love writing at the moment. And personally I can't seem to edit, it just spoils the poem. But that is probably my inexperience. And sorry John, my poems are my babies! Leave their arms alone!!! ;-)

I'm also a bugger for doing the jigsaw thing with particularly nice words and will cram them in where they don't fit sometimes (see if you can spot them lol). I don't have any set editing plan, some poems come out pretty much whole but for the odd word ending agreement and some require months of distillation, one that I will hopefully finish someday is in it's fourth incarnation of crapness now (having done some on it today) it might even be complete by this time 2020? I sent a couple off to competitions recently and cos they can't be published before haven't been able to get feedback on them, I re-read them with my head behind my hands cos they are so hugely flawed. it's difficult this innit?

Most rhyming poems should be abandoned before they're begun.

I think most poems should have been abandoned before they have been posted...but, of course, we don't know how many were.

I think the pendulum has swung too far towards a freestyle prose that, often, isn't really poetry at all. There is still a place for rhyming...just no place for crap rhyming. I've only posted 4 poems and two of them rhyme throughout, one has lots of rhymes and only one is more 'free versy'.

I like a crafted rhyme...in its place.

: )

Jx

Maybe there is a problem in that we can all ask the question "What is WOL for?" and come up with a different answer. Is it for posting only the most eloquent finely honed poetry for all to stand back gobsmacked in admiration? I don't think so. Is it for communicating ideas and emotions, making emotional connections, causing each other to think of different things or in different ways? Perhaps. For me, at this time in my life, I have discovered some sort of poetry in me and a need to communicate. I enjoy writing and have discovered that I want others to read what I write if they are so inclined. I am often guilty of rushing to my computer to see if anyone has commented on anything I've written - but then I guess my life is a bit empty in some ways. I can't get to any open mike gigs and the only way to share my stuff is to put it on here. Maybe I should ponder on it for weeks before committing it to WOL, perfecting it (or as near to that as I could ever get!!) But I am just desperate to get on and write the next one. I love lots of the poems on here, and probably not the most perfect ones, but ones that speak to me. Occasionally "perfect" poems can leave me cold - well, I guess they're not perfect then, but some have maybe too professional a touch.I get nervous and defensive when I read how there are too many bloggs, too many poets, most of the poems posted shouldn't be etc.. I just think there are as many reasons for WOL to exist as there are poets participating. And I think we all put our heads above the parapet when we write a poem, let alone let others see it.

How can anyone not like the poems of Chris Co? How can anyone not like Chris Co? He made his poetic debut at the Bards of New Brighton. With him, it's one smart move after another... Chris Co ROCKS!

Can I make a suggestion? John - you obviously do not see eye to eye with Chris. Chris, you do not see eye to eye with John. It looks to me like nothing will ever change that. Why don't you both just make a pact or solemn oath never to bother meeting each other in discussion or commentary. That way you can both go about your daily business without stress and get out of WOL the great things that must have brought you to it in the first place.
Or is that too simplistic an approach?

Can I add a few words here?
It seems a shame to me that poets fall out.
I think it gets irritating when people write entries so long you have to scroll up and down to read them. Much better to take a breath and let someone else get a word in.
It also bothers me when people make sweeping statements about all rhyming is wrong or whatever else.
Maybe men just enjoy arguing.
I like reading the discussions, but a contribution you can read without it going off the screen is good.

Freda, it might well be the case that men like arguing with each other more than women do.

But at least men, in my experience, are not generally catty.

Many (though obviously not all, and not you, Freda) women are, unfortunately, extremely catty.

One female poet on this site was horribly personally abusive to me - a man she has never even met.

She confided that she was happy to make judgements about the sort of person I was on the nature of my profile picture alone. Pathetic! It was an unpleasant experience.

Personal abuse is particularly cowardly when conducted in cyberspace.

Criticise someone's work, by all means, even trenchantly, but leave the pesonal criticism out ... unless you actively want people to think you're bonkers (which knowing performance poets, is not all that unlikely).

Maybe this thread should be abandoned, never mind "unfinnished" poems. It is very upsetting and now others are adding to it, it seems to be escalating. (I don't think that saying women are catty is helping either.) I must add that I have only found sensitivity and generosity in Chris Co. He is a goody in my world.

I don't think turning this into a gender slanging match is going to help Steve. You may well think that women are cattier than men - you are entitled to your opinion - but the evidence on this thread doesn't really support your argument. I also think taking ring side seats round a boxing ring and chiming in for your favourite does not help either.

Chris, I was never suggesting that anyone should play 'happy families'. Clearly it has gone too far for that. I was suggesting that you both throw the towel in and agree not to meet or fight again.

So is rhyme better than free verse?

There's only one way to find out...

FIGHT!!!!

Chris, you are a great asset to this site and we enjoy your contributions. On this occasion, I do feel that your response to Steve is inappropriate and potentially inflammatory and thus, contravenes our house rules.

Steve has every right to post such a comment, and to imply that it is his opinion In fact, the arguments you exercise about Steve’s posting seem to apply more to your own. By using words such as “false” and “wrong” you can be interpreted as personalising the issue rather than trying to offer a reasoned alternative view.

And the sheer length of your reply does – probably unintentionally - give an impression of anger from you that, in my view, is unwarranted.

That then seems to have encouraged John to launch into personal invective against you, seemingly sparked by some backstory to which those involved in this specific thread are not privy. Again, John, not in the spirit of our guidelines.

The thread started so well, with great contributions. Please, let’s remember that brevity is the soul of poetry. Unless someone disagrees?

Can we shake hands or something?

Chris
Just read your earlier post.
I've had bollocking's off good uns, so snide remarks behind my back from a clog lump like that don't bother me. However I appreciate your support - keep posting.

John (admin) when you say Steve do you mean John? I am confused.

No - I had to re-read the whole thread also.... I think he means Steven Waling - to whom Chris was originally responding. And Ann, I think you mean Julian (Admin) LOL !!!

I think someone should just wind this whole thread up. Much as I'd like to see it, I doubt anyone will ever shake hands - maybe throats....

The problem with flat mediums is that everything is taken too seriously. There is no account taken for tone. Far too easy to take someone seriously - I've done it myself - we've all done it..

Let's just put the kettle on, have a brew and move on. Tomorrow is the Howcroft in Bolton - anyone going?

PS

Did anyone manage to get to that poetry slam in Perth, Western Australia tonight? I wanted to go but couldn't get a babysitter prepared to sit that long. I'd love to know what it was like...

Yes I did mean Steve, whose original posting it was that Chris so took exception to, and in response to which Chris's 300+ word response started the petulance rolling.

I have removed the postings that contravene our clear chat rules.

BTW Augusta is more than likely a man, in the opinion of Paul and I.

Now, play nice, as they used to say in Oldham.

Chris,
You must not even contemplate for one moment the 'Walking Away’ from WOL.

We are all poets glorious... not Politian’s...or in JA case a born again Prussian officer..

we are Poets.. ‘Irritating’ is allowed ...down right ‘Wrong’ is allowed ... even Gender Blasting... its allowed ... we are poets!!!

. I have only had the pleasure of meeting you twice..

And that is not nearly enough..

Chris please give me a call or an email...

All the support in the world

Gus x

Julian

Chris is right that you need to do more research into the history. There is a fine line between legitimate criticism, comment and expression of opinion, and abuse. Chris isn't the only one who thinks that line has been crossed, although he has obviously got far more upset about it than anyone else.

Thanks for what you do to keep the site going and on an even keel. I'm sure we'll get through this

I don't think that anyone should walk away from anywhere. WOL is a microcosm of the real world, full of real people who we may or may not get on with - we all have to learn to deal with that.

Admin have their very own way of perceiving things - dipping in now and again to catch the waxy end of a long burning candle (how poetic is that?)

I was recently slapped on the wrists for breathing fresh air - accidentally managing to express an opinion on the exhale....

My advice to all would be, smile sweetly and carry on breathing....

Sheeesh - you make an off-the-cuff remark and someone writes an essay on logic in response.

A Man With A Dream.

Once upon a time there was a man who had a dream and ambition to create something worthwhile. He decided to build a website for a community of ''like minded'' people with a common interest to communicate and inter-act with others who they might never get the opportunity to meet in person.
His dream was duly set up, put into operation and the owner slowly but surely began to see the fruits of his labour blossom and ripen into a wonderland of scrumptious delights...

sadly however, as in all orchards, there are bad fruits and some left to rot.
Often the bad ones are tossed in the bin or when the owners are of a recycling mind, they are placed on a compost heap in the hope that any goodness will be used effectively to fertilize the soil and ultimately assist in the process of aiding the growth of new seedlings...
However 'green' minded or preferring the recycled methods is, there are often exceptions and some of the fruits will escape the notice of the orchards carers and so will be left on the ground for the birds and other animals or hungry people to feed and forage on or take home to their families and bake a wholesome pie.

I had a few different ideas here but decided this would do for now. Thankyou for reading, it's up to you whether or not you comment and up to me to decide whether a response is applicable or worthy of my attention. :-)

by Janet Ramsden.x
God bless you all.

OK, I am human, too. Yes, I do get fed up with disputes on here that spoil the wonderful discussions and polemic that so often provide the ambience of a Parisian cafe philosophe. It is interesting that some of the most – what shall I say? – intense, disputatious discussions on here have, at times, provided some wonderfully erudite polemic. I don’t want rid of debate, just the potential for individuals to take offence.

We work so hard trying to keep the whole thing going that, when such disputes arise it can be dispiriting for us. And, yes, I got fed up and behaved like the teacher I once was. So, sorry if that’s how it came across.

Chris initiated a cracking topic here. As writing off-topic IS against the principles here, can I ask you to seek out my new discussion about improving the way we run discussions.

Not at all Julian... you didnt come over like a teacher at all. This is what I say to squabling children, "Oh deary deary me,"..... not very erudite but quite effective in putting things into perspective. I dont usually comment on these discussions, but have followed this with interest{as I suspect have many others} Get a grip folks... this is an internet site, not your best friends living room. If this offends anyone tough shit.
Cate xx

I'd love to value your contributions, Chris, but by the time I get less than a third through one of your essays I lose the will to live. This is a discussion board, not a monologue board.

Do you enjoy raising the dead Steven? Don't you think enough has now been said? I for one think it is time to put this whole subject to bed - which Julian has tried to do.

There's not enough luuurrrvvee out there in the bitch-fest / bile-nest that is the contemporary poetry scene.

I'm going on a mission to talk luuurrrve, feel luuurrvve, spread love.

It's the spirit of the Bards of New Brighton - and it feels so right, it feels so GOOD!

Moreton Arms open mic tonight, then the Bards on Monday 8 March, then LIVERpoetry! at the Pilgrim, Liverpool, on Wednesday 10 March.

"I'm ditchin' all the bitchin',
opening up my a-or-ta,
and letting LOVE flood in!"

You've been warned. In my youth I was Wigan's top stud muffin. Lock up your grandmothers!

Oh Stevie baby - no-one talks love like you... there must be something you like about us women folk...
I will try to make some of your venues and am looking forward to that loving feeling.

I was talkin' to my poetry pal on dutch / german border today via jellybone, and he say's that it's even worse out there for lack of love and uber-bitchin' - apparently the fogs that emanate from the egomaniaic poetry vortex are similar to one of those Stephen King films... although apparently the scene is live and kickin' in Berlin and he recommends that... usual style banter followed re: an inate inability not to be able to go on and on about the war, LIDL's and leiderhosen and that was that I suppose... nothing else of any real relevance to report other than we might collaborate on some poetry project or other, but of course collaborators are often still viewed with mistrust in various circles so maybe we'll just go up the pub instead if they ever let him back into the UK

...have I missed the beginning of something? Many a word etc. I think Steven Waling has made some very funny points here, funny but wrong, but probably spot-on, in my opinion, and I'm never wrong.

Oh, Tommy, you adorable, shit-disturbing '............'. Do you REALLY want to resurrect this particular blog? It's been revisited with new blood having similar/same views, for years now. But some of these former 'discussions' were very salty. I so miss some of the regular contributors of that kindergarten period.